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Join us as we sit Across the Counter from Author, Speaker, and Pastor Tullian Tchividijan.
In this ATC Episode:
• Embarking on a bold exploration of downfall and redemption, Tullian joins us to share the tumultuous narrative woven into his book "Carnage and Grace." His memoir, a raw depiction of personal dissolution and the formidable journey back to faith after an affair, offers profound introspection on what it means to rebuild amidst the remnants of a very public collapse.
• How being the grandson of Billy Graham impacted his thoughts on his own humbleness.
• As a pastor re-entering his pastoral duties, Tullian confronts the challenges of finding a publisher brave enough to embrace his transparent account and the nuances of guiding a congregation wrestling with the tensions of judgment and grace. His story is not only his own but a mirror reflecting the broader complexities within the Christian community as it grapples with its leaders' imperfections.
• Navigating the murky waters of sin and restoration, this episode illuminates the delicate dance of condemnation and compassion within the church. We reflect on the collective astonishment and struggles faced when leaders we hold in high esteem falter, examining our own responses to the fall from grace of figures like Ravi Zacharias whom he knew for many years. It’s a candid discussion on the paradoxical nature of the church as both a refuge for the broken and an arena for scrutiny, and how we might better foster a restorative environment.
Join us for this intimate and impactful conversation that resonates with anyone seeking to understand the rocky road to redemption!
Connect with Tullian:
Instagram: @tulliantch
Buy his new book: https://www.amazon.com/Carnage-Grace-Confessions-Adulterous-Heart/dp/1632966379?crid=1173LKQDT1HK&keywords=carnage+and+grace+tullian&qid=1705002492&sprefix=Carnage+%26+Grace,aps,110&sr=8-1&linkCode=sl1&tag=lucidbooks148-20&linkId=9bd352a736a038cc5c7e5af6dfd30b66&language=en_US&ref_=as_li_ss_tl&fbclid=PAAaanNg7QEIR6VwInBpzXsYsIHHQomo9lXPC2ddUzXGLz0uZ2b9rPPmP7Gy4_aem_AaNl3HJCG8QiplUR6wc7pO54gWGgIbkyMaYbToekJVhWaxch8kQIFErAlv6GvwABYP4
Beliefs espoused by the guests of ATC are not necessarily the beliefs and convictions of ATC.
That said the intent of our podcast is to listen, remain curious and never fear failure in the discovery life giving truth. Many people we ardently disagree with have been our greatest teachers.
00:00 - Carnage and Grace
13:38 - Church Sin and Restoration Discussions
19:52 - Moral Failures in the Church Reflections
26:26 - Handling Pride in Celebrity Culture
41:58 - The Gift of Recovery and Grace
48:34 - Personal Growth Through Imperfection
Pull up a chair across the counter. Your one-stop shop for a variety of perspectives around Jesus and Christianity. I'm Grant Lockridge and I'm here with Tullian Chevigen and I'm pretty sure I got that right. Tullian is a pastor, he's a author and a speaker and he just released a new book on Tuesday called Carnage and Grace. And Tullian, just tell me a little bit about, like, what led you to write a book and pastor and all that stuff.
Yeah, so Carnage and Grace is actually the eighth book that I've written, but it's the first book I've written since 2014. Soon after that book came out, my entire life came crumbling down In a very, very public way. I was pastoring a very large and well-known church in my hometown of Fort Lauderdale, florida, was unfaithful to my first wife and because I was a public person, it was a very public fall, and so news of my infidelity spread far and wide and almost overnight I lost everything, went through a very painful divorce, of course, lost my job. Any sort of public credibility was gone. So I kind of had to start life all over again, beginning in the summer of 2015, and I kind of thought in the back of my mind that one day I Would probably write the story, but I knew it wasn't gonna be any time soon, and so this book kind of started off. It's you know it kind of it started maybe a year after everything, and then it was just too soon and I was still. I Was still in massive recovery from that explosion and there was just a lot to work through, and not just for me but for my kids, for my ex-wife. I got remarried to my wife, stacy. We've been married for eight years now, but Obviously she had a lot to work through, also marrying a good guy who was just on the heels of a massive personal disaster. So I didn't really start writing this book in earnest until about two years ago Maybe 18 months to two years ago. It's probably two years ago. I started and it took me about 18 months to finish, and that was about the right time because that was like seven years post everything and I had been through enough Therapy and had enough distance between me and that catastrophe to have some insight and perspective regarding what happened and why it happened and how it happened and and all of that stuff. So so the book is a very Raw Retelling of the last ten years of my life. In fact, we had a hard time Finding a Christian publisher for it because the language is salty, the story is salty.
I set out to write a very raw and unedited memoir, which is what it is, and so I talk very, very honestly but very painfully about the darkest moments of my life, not just the crash but life in the aftermath of the crash. I mean, it's one thing for a bomb to go off and that's the explosion, but the cleanup afterwards is a huge undertaking, and it wasn't just a cleanup for me, it was a cleanup for a lot of other people too. So it tells the story. I mean, it obviously doesn't tell every detail, because I don't remember every detail, but it tells all the important ones and really shows how God's friendship and God's grace Never blinked and never bailed when I was at my worst. It's a book that really talks about how God's grace meets us in the darkest corners of our lives, in the middle of our secrets, in the middle of our struggles and all of that stuff. So, yeah, it just got released out into the wild this past week and I'm excited about that and also a little nervous. There are gonna be people who Find things out about me that I have never talked about before.
There were a lot of Narratives out there when the whole explosion took place and my fall was publicized far and wide, not just in Christian media but in all media, and so you know there were narratives out there, some that were true, some that were completely false, but the unvarnished truth of the story is in this book, and so you know I'm a little nervous. I passed her a church here in Jupiter, florida, and a few people in the church have already. You know they got it and they read it and finished it, which I was remarkably surprised that they finished it in just a couple of days. And I told my wife After a few of them said we finished your book last night. I told my wife I said, yeah, I was a little unnerved by that.
Not, I was kind of surprised by how unnerved I was by that, because you know there are things in that book that are very embarrassing and I'm wide open about my story with our church and with all of the places I go and speak. I'm wide open about it. But there are, there are an inclusion of details in this, you know, in the, in the memoir, that I've never talked about publicly. So yeah, it's um. You know, confessions are an ugly business. You're giving everybody a tour of your skeleton closet and it's. It's not easy to do and it can be embarrassing, but at the end of the day, I can't think of a better way to show people the best parts of God without showing them some of the worst parts of me.
So I'm I'm kind of curious about how that all worked, as far as, like, the church coming around you like, was there a lot of like Stabbing in the front was there? You know this guy should never pass or a church again. How does your current church feel about, you know, being divorced? I'm sure you've had some scripture thrown at you and stuff like that. So I'm just I'm curious.
Yeah, I mean the church in general typically doesn't handle this stuff very well and and Christians for the most part, they don't know what to do with it when an esteemed leader that they've looked up to crashes and burns bottoms out. So in not just in my experience, but as I've heard about the experiences of lots of people church leaders who have crashed and burned in one way, shape or form, you know they they have felt ostracized, isolated by the church, by Christians. I think the church has done a pretty good job of ministering grace to people who are suffering because of what someone has done to them, and I think the church has done a pretty good job of ministering grace to people who are suffering because of what someone has done to them. I think the church, by and large, has done a pretty crappy job of ministering grace to people who are suffering because of what they've done to themselves or because of what they've done to other people. And I experienced that to be true. And yeah, there, man, I mean especially in those early years, the first three, four years after everything happened, maybe even five years after everything happened, I mean it was just, you know, I pretty much stayed off social media. I went and got the help that I needed. I did the hard work of recovery and and and still doing the hard work of recovery and all that that entails.
But there were, there were people, lots of people, who had no shortage of opinion about me and about what happened. Most of these people I'd never met, they don't know me personally, but you know they had a lot of opinions about me and what happened and the circumstances and and what I should be doing with the rest of my life certainly never pastoring again, like I disqualified myself for life from doing that. And so when I got the call about four years ago from a group of people in Jupiter to consider coming to plant a church, I was initially very reluctant. I was not excited about it. Pastoring was not something I ever wanted to do again, not because I felt like I had disqualified myself, but because, honestly, I just didn't trust church anymore and I didn't trust Christians. I certainly didn't want to entrust my livelihood to Christians Because you know, like I said, when the shit hits the fan, they typically run for the exits, and I wasn't about to go through that again.
So so I was reluctant, but when I met with these people the first time I told my wife as we were walking into the meeting, I said listen, my strategy going into this meeting is very simple I am going to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth about me and my story, and I'm going to do it in a way that is not needlessly offensive but at the same time very true, unedited, and if these people, when I'm finished, still want me to come, well, maybe these are our people. So I went into that meeting and I mean, I told them and a lot of them had known the story because they had read the headlines years prior. But I got in there and just laid it all out on the table and their immediate response was so when can you move to Jupiter and get us going? So at that point I knew that something was different about these people and something was different about this place and the sanctuary, which is the name of the church that I lead.
It's a very different place. In fact, I refer to it as a recovery place masquerading as a church. In fact, I'm, I, we. It is a church In terms of its function and legalities, but, but I hesitate to even call it that because there's so much baggage that comes with the word church and so many different people's minds. So, even though we function as such, it really is a recovery place, and one of the things we talk about a lot around here is that when we, when people, think of recovery, they typically think of people in recovery places for things like drug abuse, alcohol abuse, sex addiction, that sort of thing.
But my take on it has been now for years that if you are a human being, you are in recovery. You are a broken person living in a broken world with other broken people, and that means that you're recovering from something. In fact, you're recovering from lots of things, and so so that's really the way we function. And, to be honest with you, grant I, if the sanctuary didn't exist, I would have a really hard time going to church, not because I don't believe in God or because I don't believe the gospel or because I don't believe.
I believe all of that stuff more so now than I ever have. But I just don't fit in with church people. My story doesn't jive with the church crowd. A lot of my friends are not church going people these days, and I seem to have a lot more in common with them in terms of just being human than some of the church people I've been around. So the sanctuary is very unique in that regard. It's the only church where I feel like I fit, and so you know, god willing, we're here to stay.
Yeah, just the idea of like being honest in a church setting and getting like you know there is a place to call out sin, I think but also being like the church setting and not being like welcomed like I don't know.
I was here in the other day about how, like the early church was like super diverse, which I didn't know. Like you know, you had like Roman you know centurions are not necessarily centurions but like Romans and Greeks and Jews and like all sorts of different races, you know cultures and they were all together and that was like kind of really the first time that that had happened, like in that culture, and it kind of makes me think of that. As far as, like I think the way that that is possible is counting others as better than yourself. So, but also honesty, you need to have that honesty so that I can actually know you right. Yeah, like if I don't know you, then you know what are we doing at church. If I don't know the people around me and I don't know their honest struggles because it is easy to hide sin in church, because you don't want to be judged for your sin in church, like you feel like those are going to be some of the most judgmental people which you know.
Let's kind of yeah and oftentimes that's the case. And you know, if, if we, if we get accustomed to wearing masks, only the masks are loved, not the real us. And so you know, I've heard, because I've been wide open about my story now for a number of years and because it was so public. I hear from people literally all over the world every week and I hear because I've told my story, they feel the freedom to tell me their story. And even though the circumstances of each story are different, the one common thread that runs through all of them is that church, the Christian community, ought to be the safest place for fallen people to fall down and broken people to break things. But all too often it's the scariest. And you know, you said a minute ago you know there's a, there's a place to call out sin, and you're exactly right, there is a, there's a time and a place for that and there's a posture, that in which that should happen, and the posture should always be from one center to another center, not from someone good to someone bad. And I think that's sort of the vibe that people in church get when their sins are appropriately called out and not in front of the church. But you know, in some way, shape or form, and so I don't have any problem with the fact that I lost my job, that I suffered all of the consequences that I suffered because of what I had done, and that I mean I didn't just cause consequences for myself, I caused consequences for a lot of other people, people that I love very, very much, and so there is a time and a place for that to be exposed and for people to be appropriately sidelined, but not sidelined in solitude, sidelined with care, sidelined with a view to some form of restoration, whatever that might look like. It's different for each person, and I think you know I had an old pastor, friend of mine, who retired a few years ago, once say to me after all this happened.
He said you know, I've been in the church for 65 years, and for 65 years I've been disenchanted with the way churches handle sin in the camp, and he said, the fact of the matter is that the church is the one institution left in society that, at least theoretically, still believes in sin, and yet we're so shocked when we actually encounter it. And I think that that's totally true. That's been my experience also, which is why I was hesitant to get involved in any kind of church life again, at least, you know, in a professional way, because I had been around that block before and I know what happens and you know, and I'm in active recovery, as we all ought to be. I'm in active recovery and so I don't claim in any way, shape or form to be a better person than the way that, better than the way I was before, but I do. I do think that I'm healthier now than I was, and some of that's given me some perspective, not only into my own heart and life and the way I operate, a deeper level of self awareness, but also just how humans operate.
Why is it that we get so shocked when something terrible happens close to us, when we know theoretically that we live in a busted up world and we are busted up people? What is it, you know? Why are we? Why are we still so shocked and surprised? So, yeah, I mean, we named our church the sanctuary for a very specific reason we think the church ought to be a refuge, a respite for broken down people who are broken either by something they've done or by something someone else has done, or a combination of both, which is more than often the case.
That's really cool to hear. So how do you think what would be the best way to? Because culturally I mean in Christian culture, you see, you know people like Ravi Zacharias right, that like you know, christian apologists fought the good fight, I guess for forever, and then at the end of his life all that scandal comes out against them. And how do you think the best way to like handle that is and I get that he's passed away now, but there's so many other examples of huge pastors like falling and I'm curious just what do you think the best way to handle something like that would be one from if it's in your church perspective, but two just being like an outsider looking in.
Yeah, yeah, man, that's a big question, I mean I. Every situation is unique, every situation is different. The people closest to those situations are the ones that are in the best position to answer that question, because they have the most information, and different church traditions handle that stuff differently, very differently, I would say. For me, just on a personal level, some of these guys who I've looked up to and admired for so long and at different times in my life have been friends of mine. I mean Ravi Zacharias. I've known him for I knew him for 25 years. There are other people like that and you know, I guess my perspective on it is different now than it would have been 10 years ago.
In this, in this way, I'm saddened by whatever came out about him and and I'm sad for his family, I'm sad for all of the people that were affected by it I also feel a sadness for him. I mean, at some level this guy was enslaved to some bad habits and had grown accustomed to some, you know, some really destructive habits, and no one who's enslaved to that stuff is at peace. No one is. And, sadly, even if you begin to feel the drift coming on when you're in a position and I think we are all guilty of helping to contribute to this celebrity culture that we find inside the Christian community. But when you're in a position like that, where do you go? Who do you talk to? I mean, if you feel yourself drifting, you're, you know, you can sense it, there are some early warning signs and you can feel it and you know it, and you've already crossed maybe a couple lines. Who do you go to to talk about that stuff? Who do you say hey, dude, I'm in trouble, like I don't know where to turn, I don't know what to do. I mean, I'm afraid that if this goes public, you know the scandal is going to be so. So that's why I say I also, you know, I felt sad for him also.
I think there's a difference between feeling sad about things like this and being shocked by things like this. I'm not shocked by stuff like that anymore. I was initially shocked at my own crash and burn because I vowed years before that that that would never be the way that I fall. I had seen the stories and read the stories of, you know, large church pastors and Christian leaders crashing and burning, having affairs and getting caught and losing everything, and I was that was going to be the one area where I was not going to get, you know, backed up at all and, and you know so, I was initially shocked. Now I'm.
I think I have a better understanding of the broken human condition now because of my own fall, so that when I hear stories like Ravi, you know I'm, I'm saddened. Like I said, I'm extremely sad for his family. I mean, the guy was a husband. I mean, if the rest of us were, were sad and think about his wife and his three kids and the people that invested so much time and energy and money into the work that Ravi was doing and that sort of thing. So I feel obviously just heartbroken for them. But inside the church what we typically do is we go, we feel heartbroken for them, but we have no grace or no empathy whatsoever For the victimizer and I just I'm not in that position.
I think when you're in recovery circles, like I am, you're pretty well aware of just how capable all of us are of the most heinous things imaginable, and Jesus talks about that in the Gospels. It's from the, it's from our hearts that all manner of evil comes out. It's inside all of us. We may not all act on it. But all the stuff that was in Ravi or me or any of these other people that crashed and burned is in all of us. And I think Jesus said those words on purpose, because it's very easy to look down on someone who's crashed in a different way than we have or who sins in a different way than we do.
And so I've, you know, I've learned to express appropriate sadness but not shock, and I think that's really when you ask the question about how to handle that. I think that's really the biggest question, because how a particular church handles their pastor, obviously that's very different in every circumstance. Like I said, church traditions handle those things very differently. The bigger question is how do people like you and me handle when someone of an esteemed stature crashes and burns? How do we handle that? And you know, I just I think that obviously it all sort of goes. You know, anytime something like that happens, I just kind of get a pit in my stomach because it reminds me of my own crash and burn and the damage that I caused, but at the same time I feel a tremendous amount of empathy for the person who has, who has bottomed out. I just do, and I think some of that has to do with the fact that I here's one, here's one way that I put it Two very important things I've learned in the last 10 years.
One is this you are capable of failing in a way that is unthinkable to you right now. Unthinkable, that's the first thing. The second thing is that God's grace and forgiveness is big enough to handle the fact that your greatest failure may be ahead of you. And I learned both of those lessons the hard way. That number one I was capable of failing in a way that was unthinkable to me back then. It was unthinkable, and yet what I discovered in my failure was that God's grace and forgiveness were big enough to handle the fact that my failure was as big as it was. So, yeah, that's sort of a roundabout way of answering your question, but hopefully somewhat helpful.
I think you definitely answered it. So kind of the pinnacle of when you were a pastor, kind of a mega church pastor, how did you keep pride in check?
If I did, and I probably wouldn't have crashed it the way that I did- I'm just curious because I talked to a lot of these guys and I'm not big time in any way, shape or form, Even if this podcast just blew up like crazy. Like that's still done. I'm just recording stuff. I'm not like a massive deal regardless, even if I had the biggest podcast ever. But how do you check pride in those types of circumstances? Have you met anybody? That's figured out? Because if you're that high in Christianity it's hard.
Yeah, I think it's extremely difficult. Here's my short take on it. I don't think we were built to be celebrities. I don't think any of us have the capacity to handle celebrity rightly, none of us.
My grandfather, my mom's dad, so my maternal grandfather was Billy Graham and unarguably the most well-known religious figure of the 20th century. At the same time was by far the most humble person I've ever known in my life, and it's not even close. I remember asking him one time we called him Daddy Bill. I remember asking him one time Daddy Bill, how is it that you accomplished as much as you accomplished? I asked him this in his older age how is it that you've accomplished as much as you've accomplished?
The personal counselor to every president since Harry Truman, this guy, my granddad. He had some clout, he had some cachet. I mean, world leaders would call him on the regular, seeking counsel about massive issues. And so I remember asking him how have you remained so humble? And his immediate response was what made you think I'm humble Just because I've been able to?
He gave credit to his wife, my grandmother. He gave credit ultimately to God for whatever humility he may have had, but he himself did not think he was a humble person and talked very openly about how hard and often he struggled with his own pride. I just don't think pride is something that can be fully kept in check. I mean, my God, we're sinners. I mean we are, according to Martin Luther, the reformer we are. Mankind is curved in on himself, he says, and this has been the case since the Garden of Eden. We've been trying to do God's job and to be our own God since the Garden of Eden, so we're not by nature humble people, and whatever humility we may have is a direct result of who God is in us, for us, with us, that sort of thing. None of it comes from me. So, yeah, I don't know.
I do think this, though that the Christian culture is just as enamored by celebrity as the non-Christian culture is, and we are the first people to prop up others and put them on a pedestal, and we want to have our heroes too, and so we've created a culture where platforms are more important than character, and likes and views are more important than content and all of that stuff. We've created this, we have, we have willingly created this, and yet when one of our esteemed leaders crashes and burns, we blame that particular leader, exclusively and entirely, and part of me every time that happens wants to stand up and say we all are complicit in this crime to some degree because, you know, we've, we love our celebrities and we want our heroes and and we prop them up as such and no one can handle that stuff. No one can handle that stuff. There may be people that can handle it external Certainly I know lots of people who handle it externally better than I did but none of us can handle it internally to the degree that is required or that is necessary.
And you know, I mean I was watching an interview today I forget who it was with the Ryan Leaf, who was the number two pick in the draft back when Peyton Manning was drafted and has gone down in history as the biggest NFL bust in history, and he was doing this very honest interview. He's 45 years old right now and he just looked at the camera and said money changes people. I don't care. I don't care what anybody says. Money changes people. Money changes people in the same way that money changes people.
Power changes people, influence changes people, and I just don't think most of us are built to handle that stuff. I mean, I don't think any of us were created by God to become a celebrity. I mean Jesus. There's a reason why Jesus says things like you know live quietly. I mean, jesus lived kind of on the fringes of things, he lived outside of celebrity circles, and you know the religious celebrity circles that existed in that time. I mean there, there's something about living a quiet life, so to speak, that I think is necessary if we're going to remain emotionally, mentally and spiritually healthy.
Something about Billy Graham that kind of made me laugh is because I heard that he was super humble. I've never, obviously, met Billy Graham, but you always hear like he's so humble, whatever. And then I'm driving to Charlotte and you know, you see, like the huge billboard, number one destination in Charlotte, the Billy Graham library, and I was like, oh man, he named a library after himself. You know what a non humble guy. And then I looked into it and it cracked me up pretty hard because, like they looked like the minimal research that I did, he went kicking and screaming on please don't call this the Billy Graham library, and it is now the Billy Graham library, and that's just funny to me.
It's like no, I'm telling you, dude, he hated it. He was not. I mean, you know, he, he at that, he was it was not his idea to name it that we were there, of course, at the dedication of that library. And Every time I've been around, every time I was around him and I've been around him with some I mean with presidents, ex presidents I mean I've been in the room with him when he's been with a lot of important people and he's always extremely uncomfortable he was. He was always extremely uncomfortable with the attention that he got. He hated. And, of course, you know, the Billy Graham library is right off of the Billy Graham Parkway, which is in Charlotte. Also, he hated that, and you know. And at the same time he I think he Recognize that God had used him in a mighty way and that in honoring him, these people were essentially saying thank you to God and that's kind of the way that he looked at it. But yeah, he wasn't comfortable with any of it at all. And when there's, I've never met anybody who knew him, really knew him, who thought he was anything other than incredibly humble.
The only person I've ever heard call my granddad prideful was my granddad. He was the only one. That was like I'm not humble. I mean, I don't what. Why do you think I'm humble? And I'm like? Because the way you carry yourself, the way you always defer attention to other people and that sort of thing. And and he said something to me one time that he didn't say it exactly this way, but the idea was do you think that there is any less pride In deferring attention to other people? And it was kind of like what are you talking about? And it was like there's a certain level of pride that goes along with that too. Like I don't want to be known as the person who's proud, I want to be known as the person who's humble, which itself is a prideful posture. So I'm going to defer attention to other people. He was very self aware. He knew, knew, very knew himself well, and he knew that there was not an Iota of his entire innards that was not affected by pride in some way.
That's crazy. To think about the other way because that's something we've talked about on this podcast a couple of times is like it's so hard to have like a truly, like you know, selfless act or like not you know it's not just hard Grant, it's impossible. Other than I guess you know. Laying down your life for a friend, I guess is the only you know, maybe, and there was only one person who, and there was only one person in history who did that sinlessly.
So, even if I lay down my life for my kids, that even that, as sacrificial that is, is not going to be a sin free act, because I'm not a sin free dude.
Yeah, that's just kind of ridiculous to think about how you know what true perfection looks like, you know how you literally, if you think about it, and we don't even understand what true perfection really is. I mean, we know that it is Jesus, we know that it is the God of the Bible, but like just putting that into action, or like my brain, kenny, like it blows my mind to think of like the perfection of God and like how literally everything we do, like I was talking to my buddy the other day about, about how you know if we always relied on our own pure intentions, we never do anything. So like you never have you know. It's like I want to make sure my heart's in the right spot, which is not about never is.
No, I think once we give up on that sort of glory you know what Martin Luther called a theology of glory, not God's glory but ours Once we give up on that glory project, I think we see Jesus for who he truly is, which is a Gracious Savior. I mean, if, if, if we. It's one reason why Jesus said Because the rap on Jesus when he was on earth was by the religious people anyway was that this guy just sweeps sin and Imperfection under the rug. He's sweeping God's law under the rug, and, and Jesus's comeback to that was I didn't come to abolish the law, I came to fulfill it. God's law has to be fulfilled to Perfection for anybody to be reconciled to God, and you clowns can't do it, no matter how hard you try. So I'm gonna do it for you, and so that I rest in that I.
There was an old Presbyterian pastor by the name of Jack Miller who was famous for saying Cheer up, you're a lot worse off than you think you are, but. But he went on to say God's grace is infinitely greater than anything you could ever ask for or imagine. And and I think I have a friend named Steve Brown who says your sin is your greatest gift when you know it and your righteousness is your greatest enemy when you know it. In talking talk about self righteousness, and his point is when we know ourselves to be desperate and Without hope and helpless without God. The grace of God shines the brightest in those dark Realizations and I think then we realize we sort of have this aha moment. Our eyes are open to the realization of just how deep and why God's love is, is so much bigger and so much better than we ever thought it was. And it's important to remind people, people of faith and people not of faith who may be confused about it. But the symbol of the Christian faith is a cross, not a ladder. I used to think that, okay, the symbol of the Christian faith At the beginning of your Christian life is a cross, but then, as you become a Christian, it starts looking increasingly like a ladder and it is a cross. It will always be a cross. It never stops being a cross, and the cross is the symbol of God coming down. It's not a symbol of us climbing up. And so I think, once we finally get to the point where we go, I'm not the good, strong, self-sufficient. You know, righteous, holy, nice guy that I want everybody to think I am. I'm a dude, I'm a train wreck. I mean, if truth be told, if everybody, if Everybody in this world knew Everything about me, that God knows dude, they would freaking, they would exile me to the Isle of Patmos, never to be heard from again. And the same is true for all of us. And so I, you know, I think.
I think that understanding our own sin and brokenness helps us to be not only more appreciative for God and his grace toward us, but also helps us to be more gracious toward other people, because we don't think that we're better than anybody. When all that stuff came out about Ravi even though it was, you know, his His exposed transgressions were far greater than mine and had gone on for much longer, apparently, you know, I didn't think oh my gosh, ravi is way worse than me. I was just like dude, I he's, I could. I, had I not gotten caught, exposed when I did, I might have lived this way for 20 years, and 20 years from now I might have been exposed for the same thing.
I mean, we're all capable of this stuff, and anybody, anybody who, who chooses to believe about themselves that they are not capable, they are in fact incapable of hurting other people, destroying other people, selfishly taking advantage of other people, victimizing other people. Anybody who thinks that they're not capable of that is delusional, absolutely delusional, which is why I love recovery circles, because they know that about themselves, and typically it takes some measure of crashing and burning to understand that about yourself, to sort of know Thyself better than you currently do, which sucks. We're stubborn people and it typically takes bottoming out or getting smacked across the face with a 2x4 to realize that we're kind of jacked up. But there is a gift that comes with that realization and that is that okay, I'm not better than anybody. I mean the apostle Paul we always talk about this of the apostle Paul at the very end of his life, as an old man Referred to himself as the chief of sinners, the worst guy that he knew.
I have a friend named Jean LaRue who says if you're not the worst Person you know, you don't know yourself very well. I think he's right, dude, I think he's right. And that's not a depressing realization, it's a liberating one, because once you accept that and Acknowledge that, admit that about yourself, now you're free to look elsewhere for your identity, namely God and his love for you. Now you're free to look elsewhere For your right standing with God. You're free to look elsewhere for your value and your worthiness and your Significance and all of that stuff, and that's incredibly liberating.
Man, I think you hit the nail on the head on that one, as far as you know His. What is that verse? God's love Shown strong as through your weakness, or something like that.
Also and Corinthians.
Yeah, yeah, you know, yeah, he had this. You know, apparently he had this thorn in the flesh. The Bible doesn't identify what it was. People speculate as to what it was. I think the Bible keeps it generic on purpose, because if he identified something specific and and that specific thing was not our thing, we'd be like, well, that doesn't apply to me. But by keeping it generic we all go man, I got a thorn in my flesh too. It's this person, or it's this thing, or it's this habit, or you know whatever. This ailment, whatever.
But you know, he says I went three times and asked God to relieve me of it, and God said, no, I'm not, because this thorn is there as a reminder that you can't. You can't do this without me. And he said my, my strength is made known in your weakness. My grace is sufficient for you. Bank everything on my grace, not your performance, not your ability, not your goodness. Just scrap all that stuff. It's nonsense. And goodness isn't what God is after anyway. He's after perfection, yeah, and there was only one who was perfect and he took care of that problem for us.
The Lord is good man, that's. That's one thing that we certainly can agree on of just how screwed up we are and, yeah, how good he is, and that is so true the more you like actually know yourself, because I've had, you know, I've bottomed out. I have a whole story. I'm not gonna get into it, but man, I mean, it really is the Lord, like there's just no other way.
It's not like. You know what I mean.
Totally, totally. I. People ask me all the time like man, you know, we watched this catastrophic crash and burn and you know, then you kind of went away and you know, now I look at you now and you know your relationships with your kids are so good and you have got this, you know, amazing new wife, new issues. I mean, you know, like I said, we've been married for eight years but you know, got your kids, like God's, restored so much, how, how did you get from where you were to where you are?
I was like bro, I don't know. I mean I don't. I mean the hell if I know. I mean all I know is that I'm here because God carried me here. Yeah, not because I got wise or pulled myself up on my bootstraps or anything like that. I am where I am simply because God moved me from where I was Through some really really difficult, painful, rough terrain to where I am now and and, yeah, he gets all the credit, dude, I'm a schmuck, I mean I. You know I've anything that I put my hands to gets jacked up in some way shape or form.
It is only God's restraining grace that Can take credit for the fact that I'm. You know, I'm alive and well and I I said this this morning on social media that the only reason I am alive today is not because in my Darkest moments I held on to God. I didn't. I let go 10,000 times and still do. The only reason I'm alive today is because in my darkest moments, god never let go of me. That's just a fact. A fact so.
Well, that's awesome, any any last, like final thoughts on anything you want to share with our audience. You know about books, about new projects, about you know anything you've learned recently, that sort of thing.
Yeah, I mean I've been, you know, since the release of the of carnage and grace this past week. I've been Responding to a lot of people Most people I don't know, who are either reading it or who have just finished it or whatever and I'm I'm filled with gratitude For the fact that God could use my jacked up story of self-destruction To help people, some people who are of faith and some who aren't. But because the story is such a human story of struggle and recovery and wreckage and all of that stuff that it makes the grace that I talk about seem real to people, whatever their circumstances. And so, you know, my, my hope and my prayer is that it will. It will help as many people as it possibly can. You know, for people in recovery circles will immediately Recognize some of the language in there, because there's a lot of that in there.
But if you're, you know, if you're, if you're looking for a sanitized I was a bad guy and now I'm a good guy book. This ain't it. This is. I was a bad guy and didn't know it. I'm bad guy now I know it and, and God's grace, is sufficient for me. So, yeah, it's. It's not sanitized, a lot of embarrassing confessions in there, but I'm hopeful that it will be helpful and healing to me.
Thanks for listening to the across the counter podcast. If you enjoyed the show, please rate us five stars, wherever you got this podcast. Thanks, y'all.
