Come What May | Jesse Bradley | Episode 36

Speaker 1: 0:00

Pull up a chair across the counter. You're one stop shop for a variety of perspectives around Jesus and Christianity. I'm Grant Lockridge and I'm here with Jesse Bradley. Jesse is a pastor, a speaker, an author and a former pro goalie. So, jesse, just tell me a little bit about how you got started and the soccer and how you came to know Christ, and just a life story, let's go.

Speaker 2: 0:28

Right on Grant.

Speaker 1: 0:28

Thanks for your podcast too.

Speaker 2: 0:30

Man, I love it how you bring in a wide range of people, and I think that's helpful because we wanna always learn from each other. Grow together, be real together, and you've created that here, and I'm honored to be here today and to share some of my story. Starting there. I was two years old in Minnesota, growing up in the freezing, cold winter, when I told my parents, like when I my career ambition is to play sports. However, two year old says that I made it real clear this is what I wanna do when I grow up and that didn't change. Maybe it's the freezing, cold winter and going into the University of Minnesota games, hockey, basketball where there was so much passion in the arena that I just didn't have anything like that in my world. And I did grow up on that campus and there was a lot of sports and sometimes in life something catches you that sticks and you just know what you wanna do, and that's pretty much when I think about growing up. I had my parents divorce when I was seven, which was brutal, and family's never gonna be the same. Out of that, rather than mourn and grieve, cry, talk about it. Instead I focused on school in sports and then friends and without even realizing it, that was my approach to life. Those three things if those are going well because I had a sense like I could control those, I could do well in those and that's how I coped. But it was also joy. Sports were a joy. I played three sports in high school. We won state championships and then I went to college and I played soccer. Basketball was my passion, but soccer was the potential. And as I arrived at Dartmouth in New Hampshire I love the coach, a lot of coaches recruited, but it was small talk and this was a real relationship. And Bobby Clark's name he's a legend, he's from Scotland, he's also a goalkeeper and you can look him up. More than his accomplishments, it was the character, the connection and the culture that he built. It felt like family and when I showed up I just knew this is the place I wanna be. Now, freshman year, I was sitting on the bench to begin with and then ended up starting. That was what was happening with soccer. We won the Ivy League title. Hadn't happened in 25 years for our college and it was a huge breakthrough. So exciting and then at the same time and this is where I'll share spiritually I showed up at Dartmouth. An atheist and my family's kinda like Baskin Robbins 31 flavors little bit of everything. When I took a class the introduction to world religions I was not seeking God and we started to read the different texts from the different religions of the world. And as you study the different religions, there's some things that are uncommon and there's some things that are very different. And what's in common? Some of the morality loving your neighbor, treating others as you wanna be treated there's a lot that's common ground and then there's a lot that's very different. When I read the Bible it was like no other book I had read before. I didn't just open up and believe it that day. In fact it took over a year. There was a guy named Mike and he was on my dorm floor. He was the first Christian I ever talked to, or at least was friends with, and would talk about faith. I had no idea growing up who was Christian and who wasn't and I wasn't that interested in faith. But Mike was patient and I read the Bible and I read Mike and both were important because he had something I didn't have and I couldn't figure it out. Everything I thought that would bring me that joy and success and fulfillment. I was checking the boxes Ivy League, school, good grades, lots of friends, championship team and yet I couldn't figure on the inside what was missing in our lives? I believe there's the outside story, what people see, and then there's the inside story that's deeper, that's real, that only we know. People didn't have a clue. I was struggling on the inside and I had no clue that it would be God, that it would be part of the solution. But I read the Gospel of John. I asked Mike dozens of questions, probably hundreds of questions. I was kicking the tires. I knew this thing had to be solid and real. Historical evidence can you rely on? The Bible? Is the resurrection fact Like? How do we know Jesus has risen? And in a nutshell I'll say this Jesus caught my attention, greatest teacher, more people read the Bible than any other book. The miracles are unrivaled, the prophecy, but then sinless, then died for our sins. That took me a while to understand. And Then risen from the grave. Who else does that? Claims to be the Messiah? See us. Lewis broke it down this way. When someone claims to be the Son of God, the Savior of the world, there's only three options. They're a liar because they know they're deceiving people, they're a lunatic, they're out of their mind, they think they are but they're not, or they're the Lord. And this is this is key for me, because it in my heart there was an emptiness. But in my mind I was also engaged and looking for facts. I believe facts lead to faith and with faith you have to make some decisions. They're never forced. No one can force someone else to believe something. You make your individual choice with faith, but look at the evidence. Because I didn't want to blind faith, I didn't want a placebo effect, I didn't want something just because I wanted it. Like with the choices I needed to make Intellectually. You got to make a decision. Here there's either no God, there's one God, or there's millions of gods. They all can't be true. Similar with Jesus he's either, you know, just a lunatic, or he's a liar, or he's Lord. They all can't be true. So I had to make some hard decisions and and I ended up making decisions I didn't want to make, in the sense that when I took that class and started to read that Bible, I had no plans to follow Jesus or follow God. The Bible says taste and see that the Lord is good, and one word that was really key grant is the word grace. It's an undeserved gift and as I studied the different religions, there was a lot of keeping the law and earning and trying to be good enough. In over half of America today Thinks you earn a spot in heaven by being a good person or through your good works. That's completely misleading and it's the opposite of the Bible. The Bible says it's not by works. No one can boast it's grace and what sunk in for me is that Jesus loved me, pursue me, knew me ever before. I responded and I'm receiving a gift that's not gonna be earned. It's gonna be Jesus, a hundred percent, dying for my sins, risen from the grave. It's not like Jesus does 80. I do 20, jesus does 90 and I finish the job with my 10 in my effort. This is a hundred percent grace and that, to me, stood out. That was so compelling and ultimately it wasn't just my affection but my devotion. I would. I made a clear decision to follow Jesus and a lot of people my family, weren't happy, but I knew that. I knew and I can tell you today, years later, I have not regretted that decision for a minute, and Even when it gets difficult and life gets brutal. I'm so grateful for God and I love to talk about God, so I'm thankful we get to have this conversation.

Speaker 1: 8:14

Well, that's ideal because we'll more than likely talk about him a good bit. So you, you said it's only grace. So how do you kind of reckon style? Not even reckon style, but what do you do with? The faith without works is dead. I'm sure you got that a lot.

Speaker 2: 8:33

So I'm just curious great question yeah, because what is grace? There's a lot of misnomers, misperceptions about it and, In a nutshell, what I would say is grace. It's more saving grace, let's call it. That is more than just intellectual facts, because the word trust and again, it's by grace, through faith what is faith? Faith is trust. Now I can say I trust a chair. I can say that I've seen a lot of people sit down on a chair. It looks stable. Trust is actually when I put my full weight on the chair. So I'm making a decision to trust Jesus. This is a covenant relationship and just like marriage is a covenant relationship. There's a day where you say I do, it's not just to know about Jesus, it's to know him. And when it comes to works, there's gonna be a lot of works, but they're the fruit, they're not the basis or the merit. And I would have these discussions because I have some religious people in my family. My grandma was one of them and we would have lively discussions and she was kind of old school, so sometimes we would write it out in letters and she would say Jesse, don't you know that it's your merit, it's what you do and accomplish, it's your morality that gets you into heaven and I'd say no, actually I don't think morality gets you there. God's perfect, he's holy. All of us fall short. We need a savior. Like, why do we have the law and scripture? Because it shows us our need for a savior, because we've all broken the law and it's by grace. It's gonna be a gift, not earned now. There's gonna be works, but it's the fruit. I would also say this grant it's more than just if you say I'm gonna follow Jesus but you have no interest in actually following him. No, that's not saving grace. So it's not Just to mouth some words or it's not just to repeat a prayer but not make a decision. Faith is an act of the will and it's a choice and it's where you're gonna drop your anchor. But real faith is gonna produce works and it you're gonna bear much fruit. Jesus said it this way abide with me, you will bear much fruit. Like that's a promise. And when you decide to follow Jesus and it really is, follow him. It's not just I intellectually agree and it's definitely not trying to earn it by going to church enough or reading the Bible enough to Hopefully he'll love you. He already loves you. It's a covenant relationship. Here's another way of saying it like there's the starting and there's the growing. Physically, we know there's one day we're born. Spiritually, you know we're born again Now. Physically, you're born and then you grow the rest of your life You're growing, but you're only born once. Spiritually, you are born through faith. And then how do you grow? You grow. That's a lot of cultivating habits like reading the Bible, serving, sharing your faith, worshiping, praying. All those things are important in the growing, but those things are not in the earning. And there's an old phrase it says you know, born twice, die once. But if you're only born once, you die twice. It's a deep one. But think about it. You must be born again. Jesus said, and to Nicodemus and this is John, chapter 3, the most well-known verse in the Bible God so loved the world he gave his only a son. Whoever believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. This was Nick at night. This was Nicodemus, pharisee, who had position, he knew the Bible, he had morality, he had respect. Anything you, you would assume, would get him into heaven. In Jesus challenge, I'm said you must be born again. It's not gonna be through works, nicodemus, it's gonna be both faith and the Lord Jesus, and that's the good news. It's got two parts he died for sins and he's risen. And If you believe that You're not gonna have to fake it, manufacture it there's gonna be fruit in your life. You're gonna do incredible things. God's gonna work in you and through you. But don't fall into the trap of thinking that it's a combination of faith and then a bunch of works. If, if it was works alone that would get us there, the cross would be unnecessary Unnecessary. God would be a cruel father, because why would you have your son dying across when we can just save ourselves? No, and in faith and works, that says that Jesus's death and resurrection is not sufficient, that he did part of it, but now I've got to complete it. That's not true. Jesus says it is finished, his grace is sufficient. And if you've never made that decision before, make it today. There's no greater decision, no greater relationship, no greater love, and then the works are gonna come as the fruit.

Speaker 1: 13:30

Yeah, I guess that that Well kind of walk me through how you would define what belief is. Is that, just like I think that you know Jesus is real or Right, you know? How would you define that?

Speaker 2: 13:46

Well, what's interesting is I don't think you can prove that God exists. I think you can look out at nature and it points to God that he's good, that he's powerful, his presence. You know, I live in Pacific Northwest Beauty. Everywhere We've got mountains, mount Rainier. You know all the trees, lakes, ocean. There's a sense of awe just going for a hike, looking around, especially in summer. Winter it's a little harder to see. We got a lot of rain and clouds. But you know, even in nature points us the. Our bodies were wonderfully made, all of us are made in God's image. The design, the intricacy, this all points us to God. But I can't prove to you that God exists. I can talk about special revelation and scripture and the evidence that doesn't prove God exists. Here's a picture. It's like we're all on the jury and we want the evidence to come in and as the evidence comes in, we want it laid out on the table. God wants us to think. He says love him with all your mind. It's important to do your due diligence, your research, look at what's out there. God gives us so many resources, so many clues, so many opportunities and and everyone learns a little differently. Some people love to watch videos, some love. Podcasts, some love to read, you know, and just dive into scripture, others conversations. You can meet with God by going out in your community and serving, and God's there. You know there's a lot of ways you experience God, but can I prove God exists? No, and faith is a decision. That, based on all the evidence, everything I've looked at, I'm gonna make a decision. And again, it's an act of the will. Your identity is a decision. I was trapped in a performance based identity. What does that mean? Based on what I do, sports grades, that defines my worth. And that's a cruel trap. It's inflated, deflated pride, shame, roller coaster ride. When I shifted, my identity is now in God, in his love. Now it's secure because I could lose my job, I could lose my health, I could lose some abilities, but this relationship with God's forever. I chose that. I made a shift with my identity. You choose what you believe in you, you choose your priorities and, ultimately, you choose who you worship. We look around the world almost universally, everyone worships. Almost across the board in the world, everyone's talking about God. Well, what does that tell us? We're made to know our Creator, we're made to worship, and now you've got to choose. Here's the lie. Everything's equal. Whatever you worship is fine, whether you worship money yourself, god like, just choose it, go for it. That's deceiving, because it's got to be based on truth, and same with belief and same with faith. Facts lead to faith. It's got to be based on truth. There's an old story that college students jumped out of a third-story window into the piles of snow in Michigan and they thought well, they're gonna hold me up. Well, what happened? They broke their legs right, because the truth is that snow is not gonna hold them up, and I believe the truth is we can't save ourselves and we live once we come before our maker, and I want to make sure that it's like I'm pointing to Jesus, like my faith is in him, and I believe he is the resurrection of life. He never breaks a promise, and I believe not only did he come in a manger, but he's also gonna return, and he's gonna return as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. That's where my confidence is and that's my belief. That's my faith. It's a decision, though, and everyone makes it, and I think our minds are important part of our faith, and I encourage Everyone. Maybe you grew up in a Christian home. He never owned your faith. It's always has been your parents. You got to own it. You got to make your own decision or else it's not gonna go somewhere. You can't live it vicariously through someone else like you. You've got to make your own decision and it's an important decision. I don't think there's any more important decision. I think it's the center of everything we say and do, our attitude, and it's key, and I think Jesus is the only one that brings living water that truly satisfies the soul. That's been my experience. I tried a lot of things before, but there's nothing like this.

Speaker 1: 18:26

So how does a, a Ivy League goalkeeper turn into a pastor?

Speaker 2: 18:33

Ha. Only God, because it was not on my radar. I was able to live out my childhood dream go overseas, play professional soccer, sign in the contract, playing for the team. You know the stadium, the teammates, everything. And yet there was tragedy because after one season in Zimbabwe and I went to Scotland too, but in Zimbabwe I took a prescribed medication to prevent malaria, took it every week, built up toxic levels in my system and it wrecked me. I was fighting for my life. I had about 10 physical symptoms. The most serious was my heart. Some of the symptoms, just with my heart alone, included racing heartbeat, tachycardia, 160 beats a minute, sitting still atrial flutter, abnormal rhythms, heart murmur, skip beats, pain left side of my chest. Day and night I couldn't even fall asleep because my heart hurt so much. And that's just one physical symptom. A lot of physical symptoms Couldn't regulate not only my heartbeat but temperature, so many I could talk about. And then also the psychological, because this drug caused anxiety, panic attacks, waves of depression, you know, even suicidal thoughts would come into my mind, Like it was. It tested me to the core, Absolutely brutal, and I was fighting for my life for a year. Having said that, it really took 10 years to fully recover, and pain is a megaphone that rouses a deaf world, CS Lewis says. And I was in the refiner's fire, but good things came out of it, and I know what it's like to feel hopeless. And I had to make a lot of shifts in my life. I can talk about them now in ways that are clearer. At the time I was in survival mode and I just learned that what I had wouldn't get me through this incredible trial. That's when God shifted me towards becoming a pastor over those 10 years. But there was a deep work that God had to do in my life and I could get into. I'm just trying to think which part of it to cover. But in a nutshell, that's the short answer to your question. It was absolutely the most difficult thing I've ever been through. And yet, the goodness of God, the hope of God, I like to say hope, is a joyful, confident trust in someone or something. Hope is available always, even in the dark night of the soul, and he is the God of hope. We can cultivate different habits that lead to hope. Hope is relational and ultimately I believe this with all my heart the hope of Jesus is indestructible. And I didn't know how to access that hope. I was running out of hope and God had to. I'd say my pride had to be stripped and crushed. And just one example of that would be prayer. We were talking about the importance of the intellectual and that's there. But a lot of times my prayers were intellectual and theological and I thought I had a view of God that he was really interested and really liked the things in my life that were going well. You know, if the grades were good, the soccer's good, the friends are good, like he loved that. But I had this view of God that he didn't really want to come in to the doubt and the pain and the darkness and the mess and I didn't want to let him in. And I love that old picture. Robert Munger said you know our home, my heart cries home and we have a lot of different rooms in our lives, a lot of different doors, and we choose which doors. Do you want to let God in? Well, I let God into about half the doors and I didn't want to let him into the other half of the rooms and this was so painful. My coping mechanism growing up was be tough. Do better, don't talk about it too much and just don't cry emotionally, don't enter in denial and perseverance. Perseverance is helpful in some instances. It has some value, but it was not going to get me through this. There was nothing I could do to fast forward this trial or to just jump back on the soccer field or get in a classroom or do some things better. That was not how I was going to make it through this and I had to make a lot of shifts and part of that was let God in. I saw him. 62, verse 8 says pour out your heart to him, O people, and trust him at all times. I didn't know how to pour out my heart to God. I didn't know how to go there with God. I didn't know how to give him my burdens. My burdens were crushing me. It was like an 800 pound gorilla on top of me with everything I was going through. But I didn't know how to give those burdens to God and cast that anxiety on him and he had to come in. And then also letting people in was new. I didn't take those relationship risks. I didn't want to get vulnerable and transparent like that. I had to let people in. There's a phrase there's no healing until the revealing. That's a big deal For me. The athletic and the academic was strong, but the spiritual, the emotional, the relational needed so much growth and sometimes you don't grow until you really want to grow or you have to grow, and this forced me to grow. I was either, you know, going to grow or I was going to die, and I thank God that he sustained me and that every day is a gift. And he also rebuilt. There's a phrase in the Bible he restores the years the locusts have eaten and the enemy comes to steal, kill and destroy, but Jesus comes to give an abundance and there was an abundance of hope on the inside that was stronger than the challenges on the outside. In one other passage that spoke to me during that time, Jesus said if you abide with Him, your house will be like a house on the rock and not the sand. And when I started this trial, my house was on the sand. It's a terrible feeling when your house is on the sand and I needed Jesus to build the foundation of my life. The foundation leads to your altitude. We've got tall buildings in downtown Seattle. You start with the foundation. The foundation is strong. You can build high. The foundation isn't strong. That building is going to fall over. I needed a new foundation in my life, and that's what God rebuilt.

Speaker 1: 25:02

First of all, what team did you play for?

Speaker 2: 25:06

Yeah. So after Dartmouth I played Wilms and Bobway it was in Bulawayo and it's the Highlanders Football Club and then I went to Scotland and I was in Aberdeen there and a lot of guys I played with growing up did really well because we had a great coach in high school and he was our coach both for club and high school. So there was one player, tony, that played in the World Cup team. Several of us played professionally. Now you know Minnesota United in the MLS the Lagos family is huge there. So I had great coaches. This is true of any profession, I think. Have great mentors, find some people you can learn from and the way they lead, the way they set the culture. My coach in in is that Dartmouth, bobby Clark, he had this phrase. He's Scottish and you say, ah, it's the wee things, lad's, it's the wee things and that means it's the small things, it's how you do the small things and it's so true. I mean that stuck with me for all of life. I felt like Bobby taught a soccer, but he was really just teaching us life. Soccer is the platform for life and if you're an educator, you're a coach. The sport is just a platform for life. For the business, it's just a platform. How do you do life? And that? That sunk in for me. And Bobby is coached New Zealand national team. He coached Notre Dame, stanford. He's coached all over and he was so humble. He's close with Alec Ferguson and if you know soccer, alec Ferguson is considered one of the greatest in the world man.

Speaker 1: 26:40

United. All the titles.

Speaker 2: 26:42

You might not know him, but yeah, some people do. He coached he's the biggest teams in the world, the biggest clubs. He's had the most success. Bobby Clark could have taken that path, but he chose to focus on college soccer and help guys develop. And that's what he was. He was a mentor and more than a coach. So I'm just naming some of the teams, some of the influences, some of the mentors. Soccer was a great joy, but it's the relationships that you've formed through those sports that last a lifetime. And coach and I still talk all the time and that's a little flavor Soccer is the number one sport in the world and it's not a close second. So but we, we did something. Let me just throw this in there too. We had a hope campaign and we've done a lot of these online the last four years and God has really blessed it. But we did a World Cup hope campaign and we saw 480,000 people indicate first time decisions to follow Jesus and I share that glory to God. I share that because soccer was literally ripped away from me. I thought I would play till I'm 40. Goleys can play a long time. Soccer was taken from me and my dream was taken from me. What I thought I would do, you know, after my playing career ended maybe coach right, sports, psychology Well, it was all taken away and yet I still now play soccer, played last night men's league. I meet people from all over the world as I play and then, you know, my kids play some, but we do faith and family night with Seattle Sounders. And then soccer became. It's really this opportunity where you put together faith and sports and I love that intersection of faith and sports. And yet soccer's continue to be such a big part of my life. But it's turned into something where lives are changed. And I have my roommate in college and such a good friend, Tommy Clark. He started a grassroots soccer. He went to Zimbabwe with me and he has this nonprofit where they're helping people in Africa with AIDS. Because when we were in Africa we saw people not only with drought and poverty and unemployment, but our teammates were dying of AIDS, our teammates that were playing for the national team. What would happen a year later? They're gone and so out of that, tommy started grassroots soccer. God can take the pain you see and experience personally and forge and fuel a new purpose and passion. And out of the hopelessness that I experienced through my illness and soccer being taken away. Now my passion is to bring the hope of God around the world, and so I'm able to reconnect with so many of those guys I played with and teammates. We're still great friends.

Speaker 1: 29:30

Awesome. So tell me a little bit about your church. Like you know, you said you're a pastor. What did nomination? You know that sort of thing.

Speaker 2: 29:41

Yeah, we're in Seattle Grace Community Church. We've been here over 70 years. It actually started when Billy Graham in the 1950s came to downtown Seattle. There's Memorial Stadium right under the Space Needle and what happened at that event? People decided to follow Jesus. There's a group of people that then started our church from that down here in Auburn. We're southeast of Seattle and we've got a history that I'm grateful for. So many people for a church to survive 70 years. There's a lot of people who've really served and sacrificed and we look very different than we did throughout our history, especially the last five years. We've become really balanced multi-generationally, but also we now look more like heaven multi-ethnic people from all different nations and I love that. I will say it's more challenging. It's simpler and safer a lot of times. If a church is homogenous and everyone looks the same and acts the same and has the same preferences and the same politics and everything else, that's a little easier road. This road is an adventure. Sometimes I feel like I'm just holding onto the crocodile's tail right and we're going for a ride, but God's in control, it's worth it and I love it. It's rich. We also are a church of life groups. We believe in community. So at the core of our church we want to gather in smaller groups and we're a church that I feel like we want to bless locally and globally. We've got like 40 international partners and then doing a lot locally as well. That's important to me. Again, my background not growing up in church, ever not reading the Bible, not knowing any Christian songs I'm always thinking about the person who's in the neighborhood that's not going to come into the four walls of church, like how do we go to them? Not just invite them to come in, but how do we actually go to them and build relationships? I like to say where we live, work, learn, play and our phrases, abide and respond, because sometimes there's a vision statement or mission statement. It's all about doing and I think people get worn out and a lot of times it doesn't involve everybody, so a few people end up doing a ton and getting worn out and discouraged. Abide, that's an invitation into relationship and then, as you abide, god's going to direct you, god's going to empower you and, instead of church being compartmentalized, a key phrase at our church is daily grace. It's a daily relationship, it's not just Sundays or Sunday morning. One place, one hour, one day, and it's God's grace working through our lives, where we live, work, learn or play, and that's been huge for us. Break out of the compartmentalization of faith and make it every day. What's happening in the home, what's happening when you're at work, how do you walk with God in those different settings and how do we empower everybody at church so it's not just like watching, it's participating, it's not sit back and there's a couple of volunteers and a church staff. No, we're all doing this together, we're journeying together and everyone's important, everyone's story is important, everyone's voice is important. That's really core to what we're doing here. And then I've been involved with overalls, about 100 ministries, churches across Seattle, trying to build unity. That's important to me too, and that does involve a lot of different denominations and styles and flavors. You need a wide range to reach a city and we don't compete, we don't want to get weird, we just want to unite. That was Jesus' longest prayer, john 17. Let's unite, let's do this together, let's figure that out. Unity takes humility, unity takes sacrifice, unity takes understanding. But let's be focused on the majors more than the minors and let's make sure that we're aligned with the Bible and aligned with heaven as well. Those are some things about our church and I've got to tell you these are fascinating days, the last ever since COVID hit. What's happening in America in terms of the shifts? And I don't know if you want to get into any of them, but church attendance is lower than it's ever been and people connected with churches is lower than it's ever been. Then you also have all this digital explosion and ministry that's happening into phones and I know it's a both and I know in person's best. Both are there. And what's happening with local churches? What's the future of churches in America? I mean, this is a historic time and yet I'm fired up, like I can't think of a better time to be alive and following Jesus. And revival happens during chaotic times and almost everyone today would agree that there is so much upside down conflict, chaos, like unknown, uncertain. Right now, I mean, I have people that don't read the Bible, don't follow Jesus. Ask me, are these the end times? And so people are just wondering what is going on in the world and what can we do and what's the solution. And this is a time not to retreat but, I believe, to let your light shine and there's incredible opportunities. I wake up every day fired up. Our staff would tell you like I'm just eager, because this is a special time we're living in, not easy, not easy at all. But when you read the book of Acts it gets more difficult and it gets more incredible in what God does and I believe it's a both and the persecution increases and yet the glory of God increases. Revival doesn't happen when it's smooth sailing, and I think that this is fertile ground right now for God to do something really special in our country.

Speaker 1: 35:28

Oh yeah, I love, I just love John 17, by the way. That's just, that's so, so good.

Speaker 2: 35:35

Yes.

Speaker 1: 35:36

I don't know, that's just. That's the only place in the Bible that I know of that Jesus is specifically like talking about us, if that makes sense. Like you know, I could be wrong, but no, it's good, and I did my read through the New Testament. That was the only place that I could find that Jesus was like, and everybody that will believe in me, here's this, and I just love John 17 of, like you know, we should be so unified that basically everybody says that you know Jesus is the son of God, just because what's happening in our communities, yes, and that's just that's a crazy bold, awesome prayer, Obviously from Jesus. So it's going to be crazy bold and awesome. That's right. But, like I don't know, I'm glad you brought that up because I just I love John 17. I love the whole unity situation.

Speaker 2: 36:31

How incredible is it that Jesus prays for us I mean interceding but then we get to read his prayer for us, the believers that would come. And there's a clear emphasis there in terms of unity. I mean, he knows how difficult it is for his sons and daughters to get along and come together. We got all our walls and Jesus came to tear down the walls of hostility in his day when he was walking on earth. It was Jew and Gentile and he's a peacemaker. We need Jesus. We're not going to have unity without Jesus and we've got to be focused on the Lord as we do. That. Unity is so inspiring, and not only. What I love is the two parts. One, we come together because we already are united. We already are in the same family. God has one family. There's diversity in his family. Celebrate that. And there's going to be people from every nation, tongue and tribe in heaven. So come together as God's family. And then the second part is so the world will know, and I believe the world's watching, and the church should be the most hope filled place in the community. If people think, hmm, where am I going to find hope? People, right now, they go to the game, they go to the bar. They go to work out Like they go to the movie. They want to find hope. The church should be the most hope filled place. It should be the most united group of people. I mean the community should look at it and say how do you guys love each other so much? How does this work? How do you get along when you're so different? How do you open up your homes to each other? How do you just give so generously to each other Like I've never felt so loved? Is that what people say when they come in church? Like just blown away by the love and the unity? That's a challenge. We need God to get there, but we've got to keep going and knowing that Jesus is praying for us is big. It starts a lot of times with pastors and I've been intentional to connect with pastors In our city. We have great relationships, trust, we laugh, we pray, we serve together and I celebrate that. I haven't had that in every city. That's been something that's been really important, because if pastors don't unite, if it doesn't go deep there, how is everyone else going to come together? Now, sometimes it happens in spite of pastors, but we know the devil wants to keep everyone separate. We know sometimes our preferences it's not to invest time in relationships and unity but overall, the people in the church want the unity a lot of times more than the leadership, and the leaders are the ones that need to drop the logos and the egos and come together and start building real trust. It's not gonna be deeper than the trust, and so build that trust. And when the trust is there with the pastors, what I've just seen is people are eager to then join in, jump in, celebrate the unity. We've had Knights of Unity here, where so many different churches are represented, and it's memorable. It's one of those highlight nights because this is the goodness of God and you feel it when diverse groups of people come together and say the name Jesus and it's awesome.

Speaker 1: 39:39

Yeah, something that I've heard and also just read in the Bible is the count others is better than yourselves bit, and to me, that's one of the main keys of being unified with another person. It's just like, hey, jesse has something to say that I don't. He's valuable, he has something that I can learn from, and that's, you know, if you go in with that mentality which I don't every time go into that mentality, sometimes I get defensive, sometimes I get hostile. It's just, it's hard. But if you go in and say, hey, this person I'm talking to has value and they're literally better than me, like, count them as better than you, even though we're all equal, but count them as better than you. So I just think that that's a really good key to being unified. Is that humility?

Speaker 2: 40:40

Yes, that's a great insight, grant, and it really takes that. And who wants to do that? It's like listening versus talking. The Bible says be quick to listen, slow to speak, and I know I'm an extrovert it's a lot more natural to talk than to listen, and to really listen and ask questions. I've heard it said you got to ask three times how are you doing? Okay, how are you, how are you feeling about that? You know, what do you think about that? Or how are you really doing? Because we say how are you doing? And it just means I see you, hey, what's up? How you doing, yeah, it doesn't really mean like we care, and to really ask a few times or not be thinking about what I want to say next, or not even always trying to solve it right away, like marriage teaches me that just to enter in and really listen, getting their shoes, the goal of understanding that builds unity. If we don't listen well to each other, how are we going to be united? But it's hard to find good listeners in the culture today. It's easy to be consumed with ourselves and unity requires a lot of sacrifice. Think of the unity that Jesus brought and the price he paid for it. It was no higher price, but we're united with God through that. Unity really starts with the God head, father, son, holy Spirit, and Jesus is equal to the Father, yet submitting to the Father. And what does he do? In Gethsemane he says, father, is there any other way besides the cross? And it's like no, this is going to be the path. And Jesus drank the cup of suffering Jesus says was led by the Spirit. So within the Trinity, you have this trust, submission, sacrifice, incredible picture of unity and all of these components. This is what I found, grant. If I say unity, everyone says amen, it's a good thing. It's kind of like serving, right. Everyone says yes, it's good to serve. And then you're like, okay, who's showing up Saturday morning at six o'clock, right? And it's like, ooh, the number just got a lot smaller. We just didn't hear it. Well, everyone says unity is really wonderful, aspirational, but who wants to open up their home? Who wants to open up their heart? If we have people in a room on a Sunday that represent many different ethnicities, that's good, that's a starting point. But the real unity is going to happen when we open up our homes and we have a meal together and we learn from each other and we share, like our perspectives, our stories, our values and our cultures. It's been said, culture is a people's thoughts and a people's ways, and we've got a lot of different cultures. Ultimately, we want God's thoughts and God's ways. So how do we come together with God, with each other? And that unity is something we desperately need, and there's a reason we don't have it, and we've really got to, like you said, lift up other people and make sure that it's Philippians too. You know, considering others better than yourselves. Your attitude should be that that is the same as Christ Jesus, and if we don't have Jesus's attitude, we're not going to have the unity that Jesus offers us.

Speaker 1: 43:55

This is just something that I love asking pastors specifically. You sound pretty intelligent. So intelligent pastors what's the most recent thing that you've changed your mind on that you believe for a long time?

Speaker 2: 44:13

That's a great question.

Speaker 1: 44:15

Yeah, I love asking that.

Speaker 2: 44:19

I know there's some questions that just make you stop and it's like what was that? Because this is unscripted, I don't have, you know, an answer prepared. I remember when someone asked me in a job interview what's the biggest leadership decision you've ever made? I mean, I knew I had to answer that, but I felt like 15 minutes later I was like I still got to go home and think about that tonight. So you you saying you know what? What shifts have you made? One thing I would say, because those shifts can come in two ways. Right, they can either come by studying, and then you get some new truth and insights, or they can come by life, because life is teaching you something. And, in terms of life, what I would say is parenting is the thing that stretches me the most. I've got, you know, teenagers and I'm trying to lead them in a way that honors God, that I didn't grow up with too. So I'm leading and learning. And then teenagers are different. And how do I balance truth and grace? What is? What do limits look like? What does discipline look like? There's a joke that you start out with the 10 things every parent has to do and then after a while, it changes to like here's five suggestions for parents, and then eventually it becomes hey, here's two things, see if it works for you. But so I'm kind of being playful. But all that to say, I think with parenting I'm learning and one thing I know is that the connection with my kids it's gonna mean that I'm stretched, I'm not doing what's natural and I've got to enter in in a lot of intentional ways and that's something I it's a challenge every day. So I guess that didn't answer your question too well, but that's. I'm just trying to be honest about an area, because sometimes pastors look like they have it all together or they try to present that way, or they feel pressure that way, and I'm just saying that it doesn't matter if I went to seminary and got five degrees. What never changes is that reliance on God, and I would say you can never take that away. Same in marriage what worked a week ago might not work today. And then in parenting it's like the kids are so different to me and sometimes it's like wait a minute, like where did that come from? And I'm looking at Lauren. She's looking at me like wasn't my side of the family, wasn't my side of the family, like okay, what do we do now? And and all I'm saying is that, man, I sure don't have it together. I'm doing everything I can in God's strengths, but that was more the parenting, personal experience, life and where I'm feeling like, ooh, that's so good. Now I'll pick up something from podcasts. I'll pick up, you know, just a nugget that's like, oh, that that's gold right there. And then, in terms of more probably, what your question was, as I would say, theological, biblical, here's what I would say. I went to a seminary that was really strong in the word and love that. And then, in terms of the Holy Spirit, I believe the word in the Holy Spirit. I kind of like the railroad tracks going the same direction the longer I do ministry and what God keeps revealing to me in different ways is to not box in the Holy Spirit, and I would well, I could get into some theological pieces there. But all that to say how much we need the Holy Spirit, how the Holy Spirit is so personal, leading and guiding, communicating. Holy Spirit can use dreams, the Holy Spirit is at work and healing. I just anytime I think, okay, I've got a grasp on. This is what the Holy Spirit does and this is kind of the box I'm going to land in. Then there'll be more that comes from Scripture, there'll be more that comes from ministry, where I'm just in awe and grateful and I think, in terms of the Trinity relationship with the Father, yes, the Son, yes and I think my relationship with the Spirit was the one that grew the latest. And in that scenario where it's just it's there's joy, there's excitement and I just I don't want an unnecessary seatbelt on, I don't want a low ceiling. If God's doesn't in, isn't in the low ceiling. Like I don't want that, like I want God to lead. And I think a lot of times we're trying to do things based on principle or we're trying to do things based on our plans, or we put our trust in methods or technology, and I think what we need is a fresh wind of the Holy Spirit. We need a work of the Spirit in our cities, in our homes right now, like we need the Holy Spirit. And in that sense, not much has changed since Pentecost. I mean, look at the church before Pentecost and the Holy Spirit comes, and then look what happens when the Holy Spirit comes, and I don't think it's that different. And so in some ways it's not new. It's ancient, what we need is ancient, but at the same time, for me it just continues to be this expanse that is inspiring, and I love the Holy Spirit.

Speaker 1: 50:02

Oh man, I'm talking to a Pentecostal.

Speaker 2: 50:06

Here's the irony you know our church has Baptist roots and yet I just love the Holy Spirit. So yeah, you're right, baptist I don't know what the word would be but yeah, there's nothing wrong with that, I'm just messing with you. Yeah, I love you know. It's interesting though, because sometimes I feel like you either are in one camp or the other, unfortunately. And who wants to be in a place where you talk about the Holy Spirit but you don't value the word right? Who wants to be there? That gets so strange. I mean. Then everyone just says, well, the Spirit told me and I prayed about it, and you can manipulate that so far. And yet why is it that sometimes the places in the body of Christ that study the Word and appreciate the Word, it's almost like their Trinity is Father, son, holy Scripture, and that's not the Trinity, folks Father, son, holy Spirit. So I won't go any longer. I know this isn't the main piece here today, but all that to say is don't grieve the Holy Spirit, be filled with the Holy Spirit, and we need more things that are Spirit-led. You can have the form of religion, but no power. You can have stuff that looks great on a committee, but God's not in it, and instead of us just running our direction and saying, god, come over here and bless me, come over here and bless me. How much better it's. Like God, I just want to be on your side. If you're not in it, I don't want to be in it. Moses said God, if your presence doesn't go with us, what else is going to separate us? I don't even want to go down from this mountain if your presence isn't coming with us. I don't. Unless the Lord builds a house, those who labor labor in vain. I think I spent enough time and up projects where it wasn't Spirit-led over. You know the years of ministry where I don't want to waste any time, energy, I don't want to do anything sideways, I just want to listen to the Spirit, be sensitive to the Spirit and the Apostle Paul. I'll just add this the Apostle Paul was figuring it out. So Acts, chapter 16, he thought he'd go to Bethany, you know, maesia, asia. He kept thinking the Spirit's going to lead this way and this way and this way and this way. I said the Spirit wouldn't let him. And then the Spirit led him to Macedonia. If Apostle Paul has static on the line, then it's going to show all of us really need to stay prayerful and listening to that voice. And you talked about humility and listening and you know it's like if you really want to hear that voice, if you really want to be led by the Spirit, god's going to talk to your heart, talk to your mind, talk through Scripture. He's going to do that more. But if you're not really interested in being led, he doesn't reveal. The same way. I believe it's like a dimmer. Those who are faithful with what they've been given, more is given. Those who want more of the Spirit, more of God, more insights, like God's going to keep making more light and enlightening in new ways, and he confides in those who fear him. My encouragement has developed a great relationship with the Holy Spirit. It's still going to be a faith walk. It's still going to be at times like wait. I had one. Well, I won't get into that. But all that to say, I chose to do something for three weeks during fasting. But at first I was like well, is that just my idea? Is that God's idea? And it took me a few days to work through that. So it's messy, it's not clean and neat, doesn't have a bow around it. But keep going for that relationship with the Holy Spirit.

Speaker 1: 53:47

Interesting, jared, and I say all the time that we're like theological muts Because we don't really have a home in most of the places. So I mean I guess that makes me non-denom, but that's basically like anything, that can be literally anything. I know I like that. I think that's a very refreshing take because that's not something that I've really given a lot of thought to. On specifically the Holy Spirit, I know that there's power there and obviously I mean it's the same power that raised Jesus from the dead. It's the power that you know. I guess you know turn the water into wine situation. I don't know a whole lot about the Holy Spirit. I know that that's like kind of God's you know it's third person in the journey, but it's also like kind of God's way of doing things, if that makes sense. Like that's a really, like you know, third grader definition of it, but that's kind of how I understand it.

Speaker 2: 54:57

Hey, keep putting it in everyday terms and sharing it how you see it. That's important In our theology. Hopefully it's shaped from the Bible and we're taught a lot of things, grown up and it's good to go back to scripture. I believe scriptures are nor stars are truth source. One of the most important decisions you can make in your life is what is your truth source? And for me, I don't believe it's my intuition or intelligence. Ultimately, I don't believe it's my family or my culture, I don't believe it's tradition and I do believe it's God's Word. And if someone teaches me something, I've got this filter on and they might say three great things, but then they say one thing. It's like what was that? And I go back to scripture and say does this line up or not? Is if it's not in alignment with scripture, it might sound great but it's not going to stand the test when it comes to Holy Spirit. You know, one truth that's in scripture is that our bodies are the temples of the Holy Spirit. Well, what does that mean? I mean, in one sense, you have these different buildings that God created. He created temples, right Tents, tabernacles. They were important in the Old Testament. Here's some rich meaning in those two. Solomon built one and it had all the bling, and yet the Babylonians came in and wiped it out. And then they rebuilt the temple, and this is like the book Haggai Zerubbabel rebuilding the temple. And after they rebuilt that second temple, they were weeping because they thought it didn't compare to the first temple. And God said no, the glory will be greater. The later glory is the greater glory. My presence will be here. Jesus walked in that second temple. Well, you look at how God dwelt in temples throughout, and that's a whole Bible study you could do throughout scripture. And then you get to the New Testament. Now he calls us the temple. And what does that mean? The Holy Spirit's in us. We are not God. Some people will tell you you're God. No, you're not. But God is dwelling in you. It tells us God wants a really close relationship with us, literally wants to dwell in us. And when you put your trust in Jesus, the Holy Spirit is like a seal inside of you. But there's a command in scripture be filled with the Spirit. Some people have more of the Spirit and some have less. You'll know the fruit Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith in this, gentleness, self control. Jesus said you'll know them by the fruit and it'll be obvious. And that's the fruit of the Spirit. So, to be filled, you got to confess your sins, you know. You ask Luke 11, how much more will the Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask? So, turn from sin. Ask God to fill you with His presence, fill you with the Spirit. The command is be filled, ephesians 5, 18. And then live a life where you're filled with the Spirit. If you mess up sin, confess it right away, come right back to God. His grace is good. And it's like in marriage. I guess I'll use this metaphor. My wife and I right now we've been married a long time. Sometimes we just know with one look Like I don't even need, she doesn't need from me a 10 minute explanation. Like I come home, I look at her face, I know what kind of day it's been right, and it's because we've been walking together. We're close and it's like that with the Holy Spirit. You just start to become more familiar and you start to become sensitive to the convictions, the promptings during the day and there's a quickening. That happens Sometimes, of course, with sin, the Holy Spirit. There's an old cartoon character, jimmy Cricket, kind of whispering in your ear like don't do that, don't do that. But you sense the Spirit saying no, this isn't it. And God gives a way out with every temptation. So the Spirit helps you when you're tempted. But sometimes the same conviction comes between two things that are good, like good and best, and the Holy Spirit said that's good, but that's not for you, that doesn't have your name on it, I want you over here and best. And that leading is personal, it's intimate, it's powerful, and I found that when the Holy Spirit is guiding me, it's like one of those birthday candles you can blow out the flame, but then the flame comes back. You blow it out and the flame comes back. And when I was going into ministry, I had mentors, I had Christians, I had family members, so against it. And yet, even though they would do that, the flame kept coming back and it was like I know I'm supposed to go to seminary, I know I'm supposed to be a pastor. My wife and I adopted a boy. We had so many people saying don't do it, don't do it, don't do it, and people that love us, well-intentioned people we look up to. But the flame kept coming back and the Holy Spirit was saying no, don't listen to them. Like adopt. And I'll tell you one other one. When I had that sickness and that illness and I returned to the US and it was all based on this medication that produced side effects in my body, all the physicians told me keep taking it for another month because that's the prescription Malaria can stay latent. They were thinking they were saving my life by having me continue to take the medication, even though they didn't know the cause was the medication. Well, I prayed and I knew the Holy Spirit communicating this is the cause. It's the medication. What was supposed to protect me was killing me. Don't keep taking it and I don't recommend that. Very often to go against all the doctors, but I told all the doctors I will not take this again. I know God showed me and then we had my blood sent to the Center for Disease Control. They confirmed weeks later there were toxic levels of the drug in my system. If I didn't listen to God, if God didn't communicate to me, by His grace, to stop taking that medication, we wouldn't be doing the podcast right now. So again, the Holy Spirit, listen to God. Listen to God and Jesus says you know he's the good shepherd. His sheep know His voice. They don't listen to a stranger's voice. We got a lot of voices in our culture Lot of rants, lot of opinions, lot of posts, lot of shorts on social media. So many voices. Just hone in on that voice, god's voice, because that's success, that's all that matters, the end of our life, faithfulness. There's nothing greater than faithfulness. And what is God calling you to do? You don't have to answer to everybody, please everybody, but listen to God, be faithful to God, and the Holy Spirit is going to lead you and empower you. You're not alone in this, can't do it alone, but God will help you.

Speaker 1: 1:01:34

So is there any like final thoughts, last things that you want to share, that you're doing with our listeners, or that you know anything you want to do?

Speaker 2: 1:01:44

Yeah, I could mention a new book, power of the Second Thought, and just go to Power Thought, that website, and, as you check that out, it's about the renewing of the mind and I think we're in a time where we need our minds renewed by God. And that was a habit for me that started in my recovery and I continue today, where we have thousands of first thoughts every day. Most of them, you know, report show National Science Foundation most of them are unhelpful and so what do we need to do? I was in goalkeeper mode on the field. This is goalkeeper mode between the ears. Win the battle of the mind with that first thought. Don't believe it, harbor it or entertain it. If it's not good, it's not true, if it's selfish, if it's mean, if it's impure, you got to quickly respond with an intentional second thought, and that's what Scripture does. That intentional second thought is powerful and it redirects our whole lives and the work in our mind is significant. That's just like a one minute version of this hope habit that you do every day. It's the power of the second thought. But I encourage you to check out that book because I think it will bring a lot of healing and restoration in your life and I think there's certain habits that we cultivate where hope rises, and we need hope right now. We need hope in places, including churches, but we need hope in homes. We need hope in hearts. Right now, there's a lot of misplaced hope, there's a lot of lost hope, and he's the God of hope Romans 1513, an overflowing hope, and so this is one of the ways, I think, to access God's hope. And there's a bunch of free resources my website, jessiebradleyorg on marriage, parenting, cultivating these hope habits. Check it out Seven days. It will transform your life. Seven hope habits. That's available as well for free on the website. Yeah, those are some things that are going on.

Speaker 1: 1:03:39

Awesome. Well, thanks so much, jesse, that was a lot of fun.

Speaker 2: 1:03:42

Grant, I enjoyed it. Keep up the good work and you do a great job of just making it comfortable and just helping. I mean, you're asking questions that are making me think and I love that and I love the variety of people you bring on, so I know if people haven't responded to you. Hope you get some positive feedback and if you're listening today, sent Grant some love, send him an email, tell him what you're enjoying about the podcast. It's a lot of work to do the podcast, so just keep going, man, appreciate you.

Speaker 1: 1:04:15

Thanks so much. Thanks for listening to the Across the Camera podcast. If you enjoyed the show, please rate us five stars wherever you got this podcast. Thanks y'all.