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Join us as we sit across the counter from speaker, Pastor, and self proclaimed comedienne Jenni Wong Clayville!
In this ATC Episode:
• We unearth her voyage from a young girl in a church where female leaders were scarce to a pastor with a voice that resonates throughout her community.
• We traverse the landscape of growth and reconciliation, sharing poignant stories including one of an apology that blossomed into a life-altering conversation over a simple cup of coffee.
• Taking a deep look into scripture, we discuss often-overlooked biblical figures like Deborah, championing the necessity for diverse leadership that can truly reflect God's kingdom.
• Jenni’s narrative brings us face-to-face with the beauty of individuality, celebrating the uniqueness in each of us. From a heartfelt ode to friendships that defy the norm to a stimulating sermon on using what's at hand to fulfill one's purpose, Jenni encourages us to recognize our inherent capabilities.
Close your eyes, listen in, and let this episode embolden you to step boldly into your calling, tent peg and mallet in hand.
Connect with Jenni:
Instagram: @jclayville
Beliefs espoused by the guests of ATC are not necessarily the beliefs and convictions of ATC.
That said the intent of our podcast is to listen, remain curious and never fear failure In the discovery life giving truth. Many people we ardently disagree with have been our greatest teachers.
Hi, this is Grant Lockridge on the Across the Counter podcast. Today I'm interviewing Jenny Wong-Clayville. And just tell me, Jenny, tell me where you're from.
Speaker 2:Well, originally I'm from Seattle Washington, born and raised um, but I now live in Washington DC area. I actually live in Northern Virginia and people that are over here would be like you don't live in Washington DC, but I work in DC. I'm actually talking to you right now for my office in DC. So, yeah, from Washington to Washington, I guess.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's awesome. So how'd you get into the whole church leadership stuff?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a great question. I actually, you know, I started going to church when I was, I think, three years old or so, and I never saw women in ministry. I think the only thing I could see was maybe like the pastor's wife or like the background singer or the female volunteer and kids. But I felt called, like there was something about life that really I just felt a connection to what God had put on my life. And the calling at that time now in hindsight, was clearly ministry, vocational or not, and so I just kind of followed that in the next step. Let's end the next step. And of course, you know, growing up in church you do a lot of volunteering and it was in like worship and with youth ministries. And so I kind of just landed in youth ministry, of course in the worship side of things, and it kind of just grew from there and little did I know. You know, I remember my mom asked me when I was 16, 15 or 16, she's like what am I going to be when you grow up? And I, because I had no context for it, I said I think I want to be a pastor's wife. And now fast forward like three decades more, like fourless and I'll talk about it. You know we fast forward and you know I am a pastor and my husband is not a pastor, he's a pastor's husband and there's still not a lot of us, but there's more and more of us, and so ministry wasn't necessarily like, oh, I want to be a pastor as much as I just want to do what I was created to do, and I'm very fortunate to have been given a lot of leeway and privilege and resources to kind of get to do that, and so I think that's a really important part of my job and resources to kind of get to do that. And so, yeah, that's kind of how I landed where I landed and I would not have it any other way.
Speaker 1:I'm sure there was just a ton of roadblocks because you grew up, you know, never seeing a woman pastor, anything like that. So did you like have to jump through a lot of like hoops, or was it just kind of more clear cut?
Speaker 2:You know, there were definitely hoops. I don't know if I thought there were hoops at the time, because the reality is just. It was my life as a as a minority female. I know my my name, would you know, clayville sounds super white, but I am Chinese American, and so my parents were immigrants, and it just is something that I kind of had, or always experienced, of something that was kind of pushing against me, but I don't necessarily, I don't necessarily think that I was aware of that in my earlier years. What I do, what I can tell you, though, is I was very fortunate in many ways to have allies along the way. I had men that were already in the vocation, that spoke up for me and kind of helped resource me and make a way for me in some ways, and now it doesn't mean that I didn't have those battles, like I definitely was harder for me. There are many times I found myself either kind of sitting at the table for, like, maybe, a check for the quota, but not really invited into the conversation, or when I would say things that were maybe a good idea and no one would really listen, and then, honestly, like a man, would say it again, and then that was now his idea. It was such a great idea, you know, and so there's a lot of that in the story. But I also I know a lot of women that are still struggling that in like even a higher level. So in no way am I saying that that was my only narrative, because I really had a lot of people that just believed in me and helped make a way and gave me a space at the table and and now I do have a space at the table and I do think that most of the time I'm listening to and I can joke about oh, you know, oh, I just repeated that, or I just said that, but no one listened to me. And now someone else says you know, and so everyone laughs at that, you know, but I do feel like God has definitely paved a way in many ways and there's privilege in that, and I I'm aware and I'm very, very grateful.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. I'm sure you've been in many debates with people about women and leadership and pastors and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:I I do try to avoid those because I do. Yeah, I think oftentimes people want to. I almost feel like they want to bait me into it, and the reality is, god created all of us in his image, and so I do. I am not in any way thinking that the church should only be led by females. I think if we overrode as females all of the males, then that is not, that is not the image of God. If but if it's all male, then we're missing a whole chunk that God has created for his body. Right, and so I think both are important and we need to learn how to figure out, how to kind of work together and and remember that everything we do is for kingdom causes. I, yeah, I just I try not to engage in those, just because I feel like they're never going to be a win-win situation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, somebody always comes in with their own narrative. That's like trying to like. It's not like you're actually debating to hear the other side as much as you just like. Hey, I think it should just be men, you know. And it's like you're not going to be able to convince me otherwise, like there's not a lot of discussion on that or people really willing to listen. So yeah. I was actually on the podcast the other day and I we were interviewing this guy and he basically like flipped his whole stance on women in leadership and we talked about that a lot longer than we thought, but you know, he was like hardcore against women in leadership and then he completely flipped that and that's a pretty cool story.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I have a friend a long, long time ago I think we were in our 20s and we were doing ministry together, we're in worship together and stuff at different churches, and I always thought that we were just kind of colleagues and doing things together. And one day we're having coffee and he just said to me you know, I have a hard time grappling with women in ministry and I don't, you know, you're in leadership and I don't know what the Bible says about that, because I'm not sure if that's what's you know. And he, of course, brought up to Timothy and all that stuff. And I remember feeling heartbroken because you know, he's like don't take it personally. And I'm like, how do I not take that personally? When, that is, I had no choice in my gender. I had no choice in what God has called me to do. I was created for this time and I've read in the Bible and at that time I wasn't even like, I didn't have any of the theological backing that I have now. I feel like I can have that conversation with more knowledge and understanding and really grace. But at that time I didn't have the language for it and I was just hurt and you know, I questioned myself even in that moment of why am I doing this? And then, a year later, this guy actually called me up its head, you know. He called and said, hey, can we meet, Can we have coffee? And my first instinct was, oh, no, absolutely not. You know like you hurt me once, not again.
Speaker 1:You shouldn't be in leadership.
Speaker 2:Exactly. I'm like what do we have to talk about? But something inside was like nudging me. I'm like, hey, just have this conversation. You know, let's not expect the worst of the person, but let's not that we have to expect the best, but just engage in the conversation. And so we had coffee, and effort is kind of awkward. And he actually said to me he's like hey, you know, I did my work and I just want to apologize and I totally see how you are called to do what you do, and I was not only surprised, but there was a lot of healing in that for me. And so I think, if there's anything sometimes we're like, oh, especially men, especially white men, I want to say, if you have grown into a place where you've you're seeing a different part and you're realizing theology is not as clear cut as we always think it is, and you've grown in that area, I want to encourage you to go back and just amend some of the things, even if you don't think you need to, because there's healing for people on the other side of that and this goes across the board, for men and women and anything that can cause, you know, just bad feelings or hurts. But yeah, especially in this area, there's a lot of work that we need to do in reconciling it, so yeah, I feel that.
Speaker 1:So what would be and I'll get off of this in a second but what would be like you're we're not arguing, but just like. What is your like stance and not argument, but what is your like thoughts on? You know why women should be in leadership? Because I've heard it from other people. Sure, I'm just curious. Sure.
Speaker 2:Well, first, it's biblical Women are in leadership. We start out with even Deborah, who was a judge. She was not only just a judge but she was a prophet and she was a poet, which at the time poet had the poet, just like David had. A lot of leaders spoke that way and that was a power of a leader. And then she was also a military commander in chief. And so we look at that. She didn't just become a judge because some guy couldn't do it. She was chosen for Israel to be a judge. And when we look at judges four and five, when we start the story, she was already a judge, not becoming one. And so we look at what she's done. In fact, Barak, her military commander, did not move without her. So there's a lot in that story that we kind of gloss over. She's compared to Moses and In the Jewish tradition, hebrew biblical context, she's can. She's compared to Moses in how they just like freed the Israel people, israelites. They were at that time in oppression under King Jaban and under An assist, or at the commander there of the Canaanites and basically, after she stepped in and prophesied what God had told her to prophesy, they had 40 years of peace. So that doubled, like what they were under in, you know, in a pressure, and we never talk about that because we don't know what to do about that. So she's compared to King David, where she is, you know, the. She's a military strategist, she's a poet, she's a prophet and she's a judge. And David was known for those things as well, maybe, except that maybe less of a prophet, even though he was anointed, like Nathan was his prophet, right, but he was all those things. But he is elevated to this level, you know, and so I think, just understanding, even in the Jewish tradition that she is still to this day celebrated. That's one. There's all of these women that we don't even know about in the Bible that were also considered Judges. So we know about Deborah, but we don't ever talk about Miriam. Most people don't even know who Hilda is, but these are all women that were judges in biblical times. We look at the women that Co-led or co-started churches with Paul in the New Testament and you know, we instead we get stuck on a very Specific scripture and in Timothy, so we're looking at, you know, we have Priscilla, we have, we talk about Phoebe, we talk about, like all these women that have jumped in with him and so and he calls them co-leaders, and so I think we are so busy looking for that one text that we forget to look at the rest of scripture, and sometimes we read names and we don't know if they're male or female, so a lot of it is just reading scripture in context. And so all that to say, I could talk about this all day long and I don't know because, like, this is not what it's about. But really, if you do your research, women are very much included in Leadership in a very patriarchal time and culture. So if it was like that then and it's not as patriarchal now, why are we holding women back from the gifts that God has given them to do what they need to do to Further his kingdom? Because it's not about us in the end, it's about his kingdom and not our own empire. So, yeah, that is my my quickest spiel there, but really it's it's not about me, it's about our daughters and our granddaughters that are coming behind us and how we're just missing a chunk of humanity if we do not Hear and listen to them and allow them to speak the truth that God has given them to speak.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was more for me than our listeners. I'll tell you.
Speaker 2:I love that grant.
Speaker 1:I'm so curious about that every time because I don't really like I'm kind of in the middle in a sense of just like I Don't necessarily if you're a woman in leadership or a pastor. I Am not gonna specifically speak out against that, but I also am not so convinced that I would go to a church like that.
Speaker 2:That makes sense, bypass like a female pastor.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like.
Speaker 2:I appreciate.
Speaker 1:I'm just a middle, a Middle-aged that's. If it ever came up, I feel like I need to know a lot more about it. Like, if it came up, if I was a pastor and, like you know, there were women rising up in the church and I was like, now I need to make this decision for myself. But yeah, for now I mean it's not like you know, I don't really have a lot to do with it. Sure, yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 2:Well, and it's in a lot of it is just the way that Especially the Western American church has interpreted the Bible. You know, and I appreciate your honesty grant Like they're honestly for me too, as I was growing up, I didn't even understand that a woman could be a pastor, because I never saw it right. So I'm with you on this. I didn't know where I stood until very much, very like way more recently, and I've I recently, I mean like maybe the last 20 years for me, and that's just growing into my pastoral leadership and realizing, if I hold back, that's actually disobedience. Now, I'm not trying to take over the world, I'm absolutely not. I want people to know Jesus and that is it. That's he especially want people that look like me, because that is a missing Group and a lot of it's been from exclusion or whatever. I want them to know Jesus. And so how do we do? That is the question, right. And so even in this, like when we look at in scripture and Leviticus and Deuteronomy you know, even the New Testament is like it's it's quoted that Not just sons will prophesy, but sons and daughters will prophesy. So why would, if it says that in scripture, why would we still exclude daughters from this, you know? And so why would God create only one gender to be able to teach and then the other, or to speak in the other one, to Not that, to not do that, because that would not be Created in his image. If we're to do that, so yeah, what's your?
Speaker 1:what's your definition of prophecy? I'm just curious.
Speaker 2:Well, prophecy today looks very, very different than it was back then. There's people that are prophetic in a way, and it's not discernment, but they can see or they can hear words of, but God is kind of just revealing to them. But it's different because I think the best, those who practice prophecy, best, try to stay away from interpreting what they're seeing, because we just I am, I do have the gift of prophecy and I usually keep quiet on things unless I really feel like I have to, and it's more like a. For me, this is a person you need to talk to, this is what you need to say right now, and I don't ever say, oh, because this. So it's much more about presenting what God has, a vision or a word or a Message that God has given, but you just leave it at that, because the Holy Spirit will take care of the rest. Sometimes people need an audible person, like an audible sound or an audible experience, right for people to hear things. But yeah, I think, I think it's been abused in many ways in our church and it is a gift that is beautiful and it's a gift that's from God and it's a privilege to hear from God, but I think so often we we jump straight into interpretation and then it doesn't become about God anymore, becomes about the show that is us and Us being the the center of what people might or might not hear or understand about themselves, and that that's dangerous, that can get dangerous categories.
Speaker 1:So so that that phrase God told me you should blank.
Speaker 2:Not a fan of not at all, I would say. In college I had multiple men say that God told me we're supposed to date and we're supposed to get married. Yeah, interesting because I feel like God would have told me that too, but he didn't. He didn't there. There's just not like a you know agreement in this, and so I. It does make me sad that people take that for Kind of take that for granted and abuse it a bit because it's like, hey, what I really want? We've taken that idea of God wants to bless us and give us the desires of our heart, but we forget that it's has to be in line with what he has given us desires for. So yeah, so it does get dangerous that when God told me to tell you this yeah, that's just.
Speaker 1:I've heard somebody say that to me before, not about dating, but it was just like. If I hear that phrase, I'm always just like okay.
Speaker 2:You're like, are you sure?
Speaker 1:water off the ducks back kind of Okay the next thing you say is gonna be nonsense, right.
Speaker 2:Yes which might not be the right approach to that, like I sure, but I don't know that I did have someone come up to me this last weekend and said hey, I, I Just hear this and I want to say this to you and I don't want to like get in in your way and or like make it weird, but when he said what he was hearing, it was actually right on To what I was thinking. And he is like I don't know what that means. And he did it really well where he was not interpreting, interpretating anything and I can't speak English all of a sudden, but he can't, you know, he's not telling me what he thinks it means. But he was like I see this and this is what God is saying. Does that mean anything? And I'm like it does and thank you, you know, and so I think that is someone that knows his gift and and is practicing it well.
Speaker 1:And that feels like a very humble approach to me anyway with that right absolutely. Yeah, takes a lot of humility to go up to somebody, be like I don't know what this means, but I'm pretty sure I'm supposed to tell you this. Yeah, it's a different approach than like yeah, hey, this is law. Yes, you should, you should do this. I've heard this and this is a hundred percent. Right, that's like you know, I feel like that's a very humble approach to that Totally I agree. So what's your, what's your current role now?
Speaker 2:So I serve at National Community Church as the weekend experience pastor. That is my title. We have multiple locations, and the location that I'm at is the Northern Virginia campus, and so my job specifically is basically overseeing our staff. That is, that is, at Nova. We call it Nova because you know Northern as NO and then VA Nova yeah, so it's just a cute little nickname we have for our place, but, like, if you didn't know, washington DC and Maryland and no and Nova are all like Driving distance and so you can. For instance, I do live in Nova and it only takes me like 30 minutes to get to the office without traffic, so everything is kind of pretty close. So one of our locations is out there and my job is basically to make sure that our team Does what they do, and I'm just really fortunate because our staff at Nova is incredible. I am really, really Just. I'm so grateful that I have people that are better than me in those roles and so I can just say, hey, what do you think of this? What do you need from me? How can a resource you? Let's go, you know. So my biggest, my job is really basically to support them, and then I also am part of the teaching team At at Nova, and so I'm on part of the rotation To teach, and so that's pretty much all I do. I just get to love people and I get to think up ways to engage in our community a little bit more with a solid team, and then I get to teach God of swords.
Speaker 1:So that's kind of a dream right there.
Speaker 2:I can't complain. I cannot complain. I do love it a lot, so yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker 1:Is your church like a specific denomination or is it like the blanket non-denom?
Speaker 2:So we are actually assemblies of God, though I would not like it. I can't even say that we are. Like, when you look our bylaws, all of that, like that is what we are, because our lead pastor, mark Batterson, is assemblies God. That's what he was ordained and so he's like our poster child. But I don't think any of us are ordained through the assembly of God. All of us are ordained in different areas and so we respond in a more non-denom way. But we definitely have deep AG roots and so, yeah, we just you know, which is not the worst thing to be like they're, they're pretty, you know, right on when it comes to biblical teaching.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't even know what that is, so it's so many denominations that I can't keep them straight. So what are the? What is assemblies of God like? Does it differ on like points, or what is that?
Speaker 2:That's a great question. I don't know if there's a huge like differing of points. What I signed on to and I always sign on to every church I worked at is like different. I think there's only one church that I worked at that was non-denom, but it really is a Bible teaching, bible believing church and as long as it's the basis of that, that's all that matters to me, and so I don't think there's anything. If you're asking like anything that we hang our hat on, I don't know if there's anything like that.
Speaker 1:So what's first of all, when's the last time you gave a?
Speaker 2:sermon yes, on Sunday.
Speaker 1:On Sunday. Okay, well, that's awesome. So what's like something that you learned through, like preparing for that?
Speaker 2:Hmm, I will say, as personally it takes me a while to prep. Anyway, I do think there is. There's always a responsibility when you're teaching because you naturally are on a platform to people that are listening and so, whether you mean to or not, as a pastor you are held at somewhat I wouldn't say celebrity, but you are held at a higher level where people will listen and kind of just do whatever you say. So I want to always go in with a heart of humility. So I prep, I usually spend quite some, quite some time praying mostly about my own heart and that it would be what God wants them to hear. But then I dive into studying, like I look at all the courses fortunately I have, you know, an access to like all the libraries but I do a lot of research. I don't just, I don't necessarily preach from my feelings. The joke is that even though I'm a female, I'm like dead inside because I don't have like connections to my emotions necessarily, because I'm a thinker, like when you look at the like Myers-Briggs, I'm all the way like 99% T and so like I don't process through emotion necessarily, but really thinking through what I want to teach, and as a woman and as a minority. I think there's even more importance of how prepared I am in my research, so it's not just like a willy nilly. We are taking seriously the theology and the and the you know, exegeting of God's word, so that we are not messing with people's theology because they will leave and they'll ruminate on what we say or they'll ruminate on what songs were sung. So the theology of song and the theology of word is so important. But I think the way I prep not only is it like more what was the cultural context and what was going on ancient wise and how does it apply today, but it has a lot more to do with now. What can you do with it? Like giving them resources so that they can look up more information. Because I should not be the end. All the person on the stage should not be the end. All we, our job is to create pathways for the attender or the congregant to know how to better get access to God and to understand the relationship or a personal relationship with their, their savior. And so that's usually how I prep and the prayer is always that, no matter what, when they leave, that they are not the same as when they came in, because the Holy Spirit was on the move. So that's pretty much how I prep. I have a whole sermon, like not sermon. I have a whole teaching thing that I have. I do with teams of ladies that I coach for I'm a part of something called a propel Ecclesia, and so that's something that I teach these women as they're preaching, like how to preach well and just the. You know there's like definitely there's the heart behind it, but then there's definitely some practical steps in it as well, and unfortunately, I do think still that women have to work harder to make sure that they're heard. I have to watch my tone, I have to watch my wording so that people don't naturally just turn away and not listen anymore, and so I do appreciate that challenge because it actually just makes me a better communicator and it makes me work harder to really make sure what I'm speaking is truth and not something that just feels good or what, what I want it to mean, which I think we all do when it comes to our own personal theologies, right? So, yeah, it's fun. It's one of my favorite things to do, because I just kind of a minnured and I really like to research things oh yeah, so what's what's like a key takeaway from something you've been learning like lately specifically. You know I'm I'm 45 years old and so I know I don't look at things, but I just wanted to point out I don't um, but I would say like the older I get, the more I realize I know absolutely nothing. So my takeaway is humility is best and to really listen. So here at NCC, something that we practice is it's called the four principles of peacemaking, and the first is to ask anything. The second is to listen well, the third is to disagree freely and the fourth is to love regardless. So it's interesting, because I think we are people that are willing to ask anything freely, but we don't know how to listen well, we want to be heard, and so for me, practicing to listen and ask clarifying questions is really important. And then the next one is to disagree freely. We just like to disagree, but we feel like because we're like this binary people, dualistic that if you don't agree with me, then immediately we're enemies. And that's not true at all. The Pharisees spent most of their time grappling and disagreeing and arguing through things, and it only made them stronger. This is iron sharpening iron, right. So disagree freely. And the last thing, and the most important, is to love regardless. And so, really, we don't just go oh, because you disagree, we're done. But okay, we don't agree. But why is that? And can we still serve for the kingdom together even though we don't agree and a lot of it is? We're all meant to be different for a reason, and so let's value the difference in each other and see how we can move forward together in a collective and a celebrating way.
Speaker 1:That's so good. I need to start taking notes to do this on my podcast, because that's kind of that feels like a lot in line with what we're trying to do and obviously not always succeeding. But the goal is to hear from our guests and not debate. But we can disagree and that's fine, but at the end of the day, hopefully, we're both trying to follow Jesus and trying to make new believers, make disciples. Love God, love people that sort of stuff, and if we're Well.
Speaker 2:I don't know about you, graham, but if I actually even look back, like five years, there were things that I believed to be utterly true five years ago that I am now learning. Oh, I was way off, and I think that that is us taking on humility and saying, okay, I don't know at all, my mind is clearly finite, and so how can we keep learning and continue drawing closer to God in this stuff and so?
Speaker 1:So what is the most recent thing you change your mind on? I'm just curious.
Speaker 2:Let me think that's a great question. I think you may have stumped me. I don't know if there's been a huge mind change in the last 20 years for me, as much as there's been little tweaks of little things. I mean, I clearly at one time didn't think that women were supposed to be in ministry. I do now. I don't even know how to answer that question.
Speaker 1:Hey, it's not a big deal either way. I only asked the questions that I'm curious about. I was just like because I change my mind all the time about stuff. I'm constantly just like I hate the word deconstruction because I'm not deconstructing Christianity, I'm not throwing in the garbage and then saying ex-fangelical kind of thing. I constantly deconstruct my ideas about Christianity, my ideas about Jesus, that sort of stuff and making sure that it's solid. Because I am a white male that grew up in South Carolina in the United States it's like I'm in the Bible Belt. I'm going to have, naturally, some sort of bad theology somewhere, maybe not. I'm not saying Southern Baptist or whatever has terrible theology, but I am saying I just basically believed everything that I grew up with. Sure, I mean, I think that's good awareness.
Speaker 2:I would say I had the same thing. We don't like the word deconstruction, but I think that's not the word that we should focus in on. I think the word we're focusing in on is like, yes, deconstruct, but are you reconstructing?
Speaker 1:Yeah, there you go.
Speaker 2:That's the part that's important right. Or are you just saying I'm out of this church, and I think a lot of people have done that. It's funny because you asked me what's something that I've changed my mind on. I don't know if I've changed my mind as much as I have more questions, because it's like turning the dial a little bit.
Speaker 1:I guess so.
Speaker 2:I think even the most recent one is I don't know. I think what I can say is and I don't want to make this a whole political thing, because this is not about politics, it's about humanity- but, even for our LGBTQ family, like our friends. I say family because they are still brothers and sisters in Christ, right, so they are created in God's image. The twisting of the knob for me is how important is this really? Because how many times that's mentioned in the Bible? Versus gluttony or not being a good steward, oh my gosh. Finances are actually mentioned way more than anything else. Why is this the cross to bear for us? I'm not even saying that I hold any opinion or theology to it. I am very, very okay saying I do not know. What I do know is I do have gay friends and I love them and I would love for them to not hate the church. I think that is where my posture is, so I will do whatever needs to be done to help them know that they're loved by me and loved by the God who created them, and I'm going to trust the Holy Spirit to move in that, because the Holy Spirit loves them way more than I ever could. Right, at what point did we start believing that debating and telling them they're wrong was going to bring them closer to God? So I think there's the knob that I'm talking about. Whatever, I believe I've gotten to the point of I just don't know what I believe and I don't know if I care. It's not to me, it's not a salvation issue. So I think that might people may just like turn me off at this point and cancel me. In the end, I'm just like that's fine. I may change my mind in five years from now, you know, because I'm still learning. I, pastor Mark, our lead pastor, says I reserve the right to get smarter and I really I want to live by that. You know, I'm just going to do the best I can today. Love people. Well, love God, love people. Those are the commands.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, we've had I don't think this is going to get you canceled and if it is, my podcast is canceled because we've had so many wild things said. I mean it's, it's ridiculous. But so is there a place and I'm putting this in a different category altogether but like, not to like, unbelieving, like LGBTQ IO plus. Is that I? I don't even know how to say it Is it LGBTQ IO plus? Is that it?
Speaker 2:Yes, I, I plus.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm trying, I'm trying to learn. I'm trying to learn just the idea of like calling out sin, not in like unbelievers necessarily, but just like. Where would you say that that line is Like when? Obviously it's like kinda wiggly, if you will, but like when do you call out sin? Like-.
Speaker 2:Sin is called out when there's proximity to the person.
Speaker 1:I got you.
Speaker 2:Every single time. Matthew 18 talks about that, where if we have someone that feel that they've sinned against us, we go to them one on one. First, we have a conversation with them and then, if we don't like, if it doesn't move forward there, we bring in more people in two or three people that love them into the conversation From that point on. If they don't, we bring the church into it. And then it says that if still they're not willing to have that conversation or they're still living in sin, then we treat them as if they are not part of the church. We have interpreted that as we kick them out of the church. That's not it. We treat them as if they are not a part of the church. It means we love them more because they do not know Jesus. Now, I don't know if they know Jesus or not, but all of this even before we do any of this. The question is do we have a relationship with them? I think so often, especially American Christians. We're like just yelling into the internet, basically, and we're like listen to us and nobody cares. And Christians have such a bad reputation right now because we're judgmental and I'm not saying just these people, I am too Like. We're judgmental, we're not approachable, we're not willing to have a conversation, we're not flexible, we are not gracious, we don't have any mercy. But what does God say? He says Micah the 6-8, to act justly, love mercy and walk humbly. Those are things that we're not doing. Our command is to love God and love the other. Love the foreigner, love the alien. In Hebrew the word is the gear, the alien, the one that is not like us as we love ourselves, and we have forgotten the two greatest commandments. So when it comes to that, we're stuck on this sin of like. How do we call out sin? Okay, but the command comes back to this time and time again. How do we love? So I think we need to change our perspective of like. No, let's not. Here's the thing. God has a Holy Spirit that dwells among us that is going to convict us, and I believe that shame and guilt is a counterfeit that is provided from the enemy. That is the opposite of God's conviction, cause conviction is what will cause us to turn and repent and change. But shame and guilt drives us deeper into a depression and a place that, like, isolates us, and God has called us into community with him and others. So sin? We focus so much on sin as Christians, but I think what God has called us to time and time again is love, and so we're missing. We're missing what the call is, and I think, if anything else that anyone's heard on this is can we stop calling out sin and can we just love regardless and let the Holy Spirit convict from there? Cause, proximity, heals. So many things. I got you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's super well said. I mean several, several times in the Bible. I mean it's like do this, this and this and, above all, these love, and like the root of this and like it all ends in love, basically. And I think that that's super well said because, like, obviously that's one of the biggest things there is in the New Annal Testament is that love, which obviously there's multiple types of love and whatever. But like, yeah, so I think that that's super super well said on that, and can I just say I feel like you have I don't know, it feels like you have a very humble approach too, so I love that. Oh, I appreciate that.
Speaker 2:I really do appreciate that, because I don't. I really want. I welcome a conversation at any time it's. It would be nice if you know I wasn't attacked.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean what are you gonna do? I?
Speaker 2:mean people get so upset about it and I'm like is God not in control? Is he not in control? You know? And so you know. It's funny because, like Jesus was asked in Matthew, it says this is a Matthew, and I believe. In Mark it says how he was approached and he said what is the most important commandment? And he said, is to do this to love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. And the second is this to love your neighbor as yourself. And in that whole time he is actually quoting Leviticus, so Leviticus 19. And so it's like pulling the Old Testament and the New Testament together and God is or Jesus at that point, I should say is reiterating and recalibrating what the law is and that we have done it incorrectly. And I say we, I'm not an Israeli, I'm not Jewish, but for the Jewish people at that time he was saying, hey, I'm recalibrating this because we have taken other laws to a higher level of importance, very similar, I would say, to what we're doing now as Christians, american Christians. But every culture is going to mix their own culture in with God's culture and there's not necessarily anything inherently bad until we misinterpret and we marginalize people, which was the opposite of what Jesus was doing right, and so I think we need to continually check ourselves to see, hey, how are we being more like Jesus? And the truth is, jesus was hanging out with the least popular. So what are we doing with our time? Are we chasing popularity or are we chasing kingdom?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's good. It's almost like you're a pastor. Yeah, that's really good stuff. So, to completely shift gears, I saw on now this could have been just a joke, but I saw on your Instagram bio that it said comedian and I want to get into that.
Speaker 2:I'm a self-proclaimed comedian, so no one has told me though I haven't told many times of people that they think I'm hilarious and I'm going to receive that that is a gift. I do believe that God gave me the spiritual gift of sassiness and sarcasm and yeah, and so, yeah, I do love to laugh, that's my favorite thing to do, and I am probably not so right in the head, but I am God's created beauty, so I'm just going to hang on to that.
Speaker 1:I was just curious if you like did stand up or something like that, because that would have been awesome?
Speaker 2:I don't, but you know what, as a high school or in college I did a lot of musicals and plays and part of that was improv classes and that was probably some of my favorite stuff, and so I've definitely invested in how to make a very awkward situation less awkward. But I also just like to lean into the awkward because I think weird is awesome. Mm, hmm, the weird you are, come hang out with me, that's the good stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, my wife tells me all the time that my friends are super weird, always because I like kind of the fringe people. That's the best, they're the best. Like my best friend is like the shyest guy ever. He's like super awkward, like kind of guy and he's just like the best dude ever. So it's like and how are you going to find these people? Like? They're just like not talking. They're just over there, like in a corner somewhere. Like how do you find them?
Speaker 2:I also think the quiet people are maybe usually the most interesting.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, they got a lot. They got a lot to say, maybe because they don't talk a lot, but they got a lot to say.
Speaker 2:They have a lot of wisdom in there, I would say, you know, just maybe have a little bit of conversation, but also they're probably introverts and so maybe honor that space a little bit for them, oh yeah. Yeah, I just. You know, life is too short to be normal, whatever normal is, we're just chasing whatever normalcy is, and it doesn't really exist. So you know what? Let your freak flag fly. Just be weird, do it?
Speaker 1:There you go, so what's? Give me just an interesting point from your last sermon. They're like man. This really is something you should hear, or our listeners should hear.
Speaker 2:First of all, you should always listen to all of my sermons so great Actually, on my social media I think underneath there's a link tree and you can hear stuff but I talked about yeah, go ahead and listen, and then you know, feel free to give your opinions there, because I may or may not care. I just go ahead and put.
Speaker 1:This is terrible from bring it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm like, thanks Grant. So I talked about. I brought up Deborah because that was fresh in my mind. I talked about Deborah. But also in the story of Deborah is JL and we all know JL to be the wife of Haber, who Cicera. The commander came running to them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we all know that.
Speaker 2:Right, she brought him into the tent and, you know, gave him some milk. He falls asleep and then she takes a tent peg and just knocks it right into his head. Right, yeah, so yeah, and kills him. And so, and it all was because Deborah had revealed the prophecy that God was going to give the Canaanites over to Barak, her commander. But the commander, barak, said I will go if you go, if you don't go, I won't go. And so she said, okay, I'll go with you, but you'll still do all the work, but you will not get the glory, which was pretty like bad for a commander, because that's the whole point of being like a military commander.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:So, on top of that, god said not only will you not get the glory, but a woman will get the glory for the death of Cicera. And so it became JL. Jl didn't know anything about it At least that's not what we see in the text and so he runs to her, thinking that she's an ally, and she takes him out. And so often we're like, oh, murder, oh no, which? Yeah, like, don't murder, like that's the point, don't murder. I'm not consenting to murder. Please don't murder, please do not unalive anybody. If you need, if you have some urge of anger right now, maybe go get some counseling, maybe call Grant. Grant could pray over you and you know, like hands, whatever needs to happen needs to happen. But my whole point is this that JL, all she had as a woman at that time it's very normal at that time for nomadic women to have, that was their job. They would, you know, throw the 10 pegs down to give themselves sheltered in their home, right. And so what she had in front of her was a 10 peg and a mallet, and she didn't wait for someone to save her. She didn't wait until she had the resources. You know, I think, application wise, we look at it and go hey, I don't, I'm going to wait until I have enough resources. I'm going to wait until I have enough time to serve the church. I'm going to wait until I have the resources so that I can actually do what God has called me to do 15 years ago. Or I'm going to wait until I have that raise or have that money to you know, give more. And the thing God is telling us here is just, like JL, I've already given you everything you need. I've already ordained this moment. I've given you everything, all the skills you need to do the things that I've called you to do. So in obedience, not like Barak, but like Deborah and JL. Act in obedience and trust that I've got it. Because here's the thing when they went into battle, the Israelites were so un like, outnumbered by Canaan, and God used the earth. It says in. It says in Judges, chapter 5, that God used. There was rain coming down, there was water coming up from the earth, there was the mountain shaking, there was a giant earthquake, meteors and stars are falling from the sky. Like God Won this, like he made this crazy thing going on, and like none of them were left. None of the Canaanites were left, and so God's got this. You got to trust that. How are you using what he has given you? So that is my takeaway is that every single person listening to this right now Because, simply because you exist on earth, because you're born in this time, for such a time as this, you were called to do something important. Now it just comes down to you obey and do it, because God has already given you the gifts to do what you're supposed to do. Don't compare yourself to the next person. Don't compare yourself to you know, the most amazing speaker. Just sit knee-capped knee-capped to the person that's right in front of you and love on them. Well, you know, social media has kind of ruined us for everything, and so that is the big takeaway. That was a big takeaway from the sermon yesterday is that you were ordained, you're called, you were anointed with what he has given you For this time, for this place. You just have to accept the invitation and take action For the good of his kingdom.
Speaker 1:I like it, I like it. So what's the like? How do you discern that? Because, obviously, like, not all action is the right action.
Speaker 2:So I Think what is consistent in the Bible is that the action that is the right action is rarely the action you want to take. So I think discernment would tell you if this is glorifying to you and it feels good. It might not be. I'm not saying that sometimes it doesn't feel good, because God does give us those reprieves, but usually if you're supposed to do something, if we're doing things as we follow Christ, like in Philippians, it talks about us doing likewise as Christ there. Like Christ died on a cross right, all of his Disciples and apostles died a very traumatic death. And so so often we think, oh, if we do all the things that are right this is, this is actually American messed up theology is if we do everything right, then our lives will be great. Now, not that he's not gonna bless us in this time, because he does do that but we should not expect that life should be easy and great and we should be grateful when it happens. But if we are following Christ, life probably is Gonna be a little poopy and it's gonna be hard and it's gonna feel like we're pushing against a mountain at times and we're just trusting that this lifetime is a blip Compared to eternity with him and we just have to trust that it's gonna be good. Not that we need to be martyrs, but we just need to do what's right and and I do think that if you're truly seeking God and you are in a good community of believers, that will keep you accountable, that you will know what that is, because God has given the Holy Spirit to dwell in all of us, and I think we've doubted ourselves in that, but God is good and you will know it. You don't need, you don't need a pastor to tell you, you don't need a podcast to tell you, you don't need the president to tell you, you just need to listen, because I think the Holy Spirit is bold, though a gentleman.
Speaker 1:Hmm, Well said Well. Is there any last final thoughts that you want to share with our audience? Just anything that comes to mind Free space free space free space on the big yeah.
Speaker 2:Yes, exactly, you know I feel like I've talked a lot, but I just I think really what's important is, whatever you're doing, especially in this season, is that you're loving people well and and and you are very much. I know this is probably over said, but you are, in in many ways, Maybe the only Jesus anybody will ever see, and so if you're gonna be that, let's represent him correctly and even if you mess up here and there, god is bigger than all of that. Don't be afraid of that. Like, just just be you and be real and let's not take to any. You know legalism, but you know the laws are important, but Jesus is bigger and he came to. You know he came to really bring everybody and make it a level playing field and so, yeah, god is good and and we just have to remember that and we don't get stuck in what was me. Second thing I want to think of as a lot of times, people, or I want to say, is that a lot of times people are so hard on themselves and we're coming still out of this COVID craziness and the, the Christian culture is that we don't need counseling, and More and more studies are coming out, and this is kind of my background, so I'm just thinking through this. But more and more studies are coming out that when we're talking about the holistic part of ourselves, it's not just our spiritual life, like we can't just pray it away sometimes there's the physical part of it, there's the emotional, mental and there's that psychological part of it. Right is to add on to that spiritual. So if we're gonna be holistically whole, then we need to address all those areas and Allow ourselves to either grieve or lament. We don't that's in the Bible, but we we don't do that very well, you know, we don't know how we we think, oh, we have to be happy all the time. Well, that's far from anything the Bible says. But Definitely get help and and and and be okay, not being okay. That's harder to To run with, and that is he probably easy for me to say. But I will say I've been in on and off in counseling for 20 years no and man out of, out of COVID. I was not doing great because I just wanted to take care of everyone, but we couldn't see each other right. I was so worried about my congregation and and we we don't recognize that we had a huge trauma on our lives that affected us on a global level and we're supposed to just like jump back into life like nothing happened. So take a minute, take a minute for yourself and kind of just self-assess like where am I and and where am I not fully and what do I need to do about it? And there's so many resources out there. Just a quick Google out there and and if you have any questions, like, feel free to reach out and I can try and help put you in the right direction awesome.
Speaker 1:Well, thanks so much. Thanks for listening to the across the counter podcast. If you enjoyed the show, please rate us five stars wherever you got this podcast. Thanks y'all.
