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When is the last time you said no to something important to focus on something of greater value?
Join us we explore this concept and many others with Shane Pruitt, National Next Gen Director for the North American Mission Board.
In this ATC Episode:
• How to discern between real emergencies and procrastination.
• We delve into the cultural issues within the Church, and how we can remain steadfast in faith amidst a rapidly changing society.
• The importance of allowing the Holy Spirit to be the ultimate teacher.
Connect with Shane:
Instagram: @shane_pruitt78
Beliefs espoused by the guests of ATC are not necessarily the beliefs and convictions of ATC.
That said the intent of our podcast is to listen, remain curious and never fear failure In the discovery life giving truth. Many people we ardently disagree with have been our greatest teachers.
So today we have on the podcast Shane Pruitt, and this is the Across the Counter podcast, and Shane, just tell me a little bit what's going on. What's going on with your life? How'd you get into what you're getting into?
Speaker 2:Awesome hey, what's up guys? Thanks for having me on. Yeah, my name is Shane. I serve as the National Next Gen Director for the North American Mission Board, which is a network of about 48,000 churches. So I get to lead our team to reach and equip and disciple young adults, college students and teenagers with the gospel of Jesus Christ and to equip next gen leaders that are on the front lines doing those very things. We get to equip those leaders to do that, to reach, equip and disciple students, teenagers, college students, young adults with the gospel of Jesus Christ. So that's fun. Man. Having a blast on the ministry side is actually telling some people this morning. I don't know if you're supposed to have that much fun in ministry, but I am. And then my primary ministry is my family. My wife and I celebrate 19 years of marriage actually next week at the time of this recording and this conversation and then we have five kiddos our oldest is 17, our youngest is 6, and then we also have a kiddo with Jesus in heaven. So yeah, man, that's primary ministry. Everything else is from the overflow of that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's something so needed in the church today at least. I think a lot of people do like college ministry, a lot of people do young people. But just having that like specific like young adults pastor because that was like probably the hardest time in my life was like into college but like between you just get out in the real world, that two, three years is tough and it seems to be that way for a lot of my friends. So having that specific like young adults thing is huge to me. That's something near and dear to my heart, so glad you're doing that.
Speaker 2:Absolutely yeah, and man, and I'm so thankful for children's ministry and youth ministry, but I would say that college and young adult ministry is some of the most difficult ministry to do, honestly, because if you think about it, even a lot of large churches or healthy churches, they may have all kinds of demographics, but that demographic, a lot of times even the metrics are different to go, oh man, we have a hundred, two hundred college students, young adults. That's a big group, even for churches that are like massive and they may have a thousand teenagers, but a hundred young adults and college students and it's just the metrics different. I think it's hard. I think the biggest missing demographic in most churches is that 18 to 30 group and, man, I'm so thankful for leaders who are called to reach those young adults and are doing it well. Man, praise God for that.
Speaker 1:So what do you think that is that specific like young adults that are believing and not really involved in church as much?
Speaker 2:Yeah, great question. I think there's multiple layers, there's multiple answers to that question. I think one of the biggest reasons that people leave when they, for like a better term, graduate out of the youth ministry is, I say this I think in recent decades I think a lot of youth ministries were ran almost like a church within a church. When you think about a lot of youth ministries, they have their own name, their own vision statements, their own core values, their own leaders and they kind of operate like a church within a church and they're not involved in the life of the church as a whole. And so a lot of students, just being honest, when they graduate out of student ministry and they go off to college, that's a whole different dynamic because they've only maybe known one church. So now they're going off to college they're going to a new town churches that they don't know and have an experience with. So I think a lot of times when they're 18 trying to get plugged into a new church, that's a different dynamic. But even if they don't move off, sometimes when students graduate out of student ministry they're going in a sense to a different church that just meets at the same building because they don't have any relationships outside the student ministry. They don't understand the culture, they understand the dynamic, the vision, they don't know the leaders. And so I would say I think one helpful thing is if we would shift our children's ministry student ministry to go hey, it's not operating like a church within a church or a ministry within a ministry, it's a part of the life of the whole of the church. Now listen, I believe in age specific ministries. I think that's very important, but I think we got to constantly find ways to help young people have relationships in the church as a whole, that they're serving in the church as a whole. Because I think a lot of times, whenever I'm doing coaching or equipping for youth leaders or student pastors, I'll say, hey, we need to mobilize students to serve, teenagers to serve, and I think we go, yes, but we default to them serving in the student ministry. Right, they're like, oh yeah, we need more 15 year old stacking chairs. Hey, praise the Lord for that. But when I'm talking about serving, I'm talking about serving in the whole life of the church, not just in the student ministry specifically, because I think one of the sticking powers that we do see in students that remain in the local church, even through the transition of children's ministry, middle school ministry, high school ministry, college ministry, young adult get married. Kids all that stick around is usually if they're serving in the church and they have multiple relationships in the church. That's typically the most common ground as we see a sticking power there yeah, I like that.
Speaker 3:I like that you're mentioning the idea of not having siloed sections of community right. That's a tendency that we, being human beings, lean toward, like you said, age specific or clicks, or like we lean towards things that are similar and that there's health in that. But yeah, there's such a paradox of balance because too much similarity becomes almost like cancer. Like cancer is just a multiplication of the exact same cell over and over so there's some balance yeah, there's some balance of like diversity. What tie these together for me because I don't want to miss something you said at the very beginning, which is your first ministry is your family, and then everything overflows from that. Yeah, and you just describe the multifaceted nature of being in community or being engaged in community. To me, sometimes it seems hard to not silo. If, okay, you have five kids, like your family is a lot right, does that make sense? So what is it? What does it look like for you to have your first ministry be your family, but then also be fully incorporated into a community and engaged, and that they not be in competition? This is what I'm asking making sense?
Speaker 2:absolutely yeah, and I would just say don't always do it, don't always do it perfectly, but striving to grow in that area all the time and here's it was probably from day one, I would use that cliche is my marriage is my primary ministry. My family is my primary ministry as we had kids. But I would just be honest, I didn't always practice that. It was, it sounded nice coming out my mouth, but I didn't always practice that and honestly, I think some of it is just getting getting older, watching the kids grow up. I know, when I was in my 20s and people go, hey, it's gonna go by fast, I'm like it doesn't seem like because I'm still changing diapers and it feels like I've been doing it for an eternity. But my gosh, now, when our oldest is a senior high school, I'm like, oh man, I think it's very real. This is a short window often that you do have with your kids, and so I think, as I've just been in ministry for over 20 years now, I think one thing that I've learned just by experience that I wish I would have learned earlier but maybe sometimes it's that experience that actually has to reveal it to you is that a ministry, you may have multiple different postings, right. You may serve at this church for a stage of your life and then this church for a stage of your life and then this ministry. Or you might be a youth pastor and then a lead pastor, called worship pastor. What I'm saying is you might have multiple different postings, multiple different positions and multiple different areas throughout the breadth of your ministry, but hopefully you only have one spouse, hopefully right, like your kids grow up to love Jesus. And so I would just say, invest in what you know you have one of. Hopefully you only have one spouse until Jesus comes back or calls you home. And then I think I look at my kids and go listen at the end day. I know you can do everything right and your kids still rebel. We know that you can do everything right and your kids still reject the faith because at some point it has to go from mom and daddy's faith to their faith. We know that. So you can. I want to say that you can do everything right and I'm still go down a different path, but I think priority and not just with your mouth, by your actions to go, and I could like, disciple the next generation. I could preach the gospel. I could write books, I could write blogs, I could go all over the world and yet if my kids grow up hating Jesus or being bitter towards the church or having no thriving relationship with Jesus, then I missed it. In a sense, I was overlooking my keeping my own yard nice. I was overlooking that to help others keep their yards nice, and my yard's got all these weeds in it. So I really want to just, instead of going all right, I'm going to try to balance family and ministry. I really want to focus on my family and making sure we're healthy, making sure my wife and I are on the same page, and then lead others out of the overflow of that, because I've found is that if my wife and I are clicking well and on the same page, then I'm going to be more effective in ministry anyway. Right, if there's a wedge between me and my wife, I'm going to have a hard time preaching the Bible. Anyway, I'm going to have a hard time resourcing others. I'm going to have a hard time leading others if there's a wedge between my wife and I or if my kids are acting crazy. So I found I'm always going to be more effective in ministry anyway if my home is in order. Now, does that mean we're always perfect? No, does that mean, hey, I wake up in the mornings and it's 6am and there's worship music going on and I sit down at the fireplace and change my shoes, like Mr Rogers did, and the kids come running, sit at my feet and go. Dad, read Leviticus to us. No, it's not like that at all. It is chaos. But I found like I really stopped trying to balance family ministry because I realized you can't do that, so more is like harmony. Okay, like I want my family to understand that it's not just dad called the live-almission, it's not just dad called to know Jesus, make Jesus known. That's all of our calling, because we're all believers and so we're going to serve together. We're going to be on mission together, as a family. We're going to live that way. And then whenever I am because I do it, I tend to ministry. So whenever I am on the road or in the plane and going across the nation to preach the gospel, I want to include them in that. I want to go. Hey, here's where I'm going, here's who's going to be there. Would y'all pray for me as I'm leaving? Would y'all pray for me as I'm gone. I don't say yes to stuff anymore unless my wife is involved. So I actually have a calendar team now that manages speaking requests and they dictate my calendar and my wife is one of those team members. So what's so cool is, even if she doesn't go with me, she still feels a part of that event. She still feels a part of that Kingdom work because she helped make that decision to say yes, she prayed about it. She's praying as I'm there. She's wanting to know how it's going, so she still feels a part of it. So I think that's something that I've made a change, especially in the last years. Just try to include family in the ministry so that we're doing this together and it's not dad's thing why we sit here and miss him.
Speaker 1:Dude, that's so wise about the calendar thing, because that was one of the best things for my marriage is me and my wife have a shared calendar, and that'll change the game. Because I was like double, triple booking on things and she was like I told you about this and when to do this and I'm like now we have a rule. If it's not on the calendar, neither one of us said it. Yeah, that gets out of hours of whatever every week.
Speaker 2:Well, I'll be honest, I was that dude. I would say yes to stuff, then tell Casey and then my wife man, she is salty for the glory of God, which I need that my life She'll be like I'm not your baby sitter. You know what I mean and but in a way that's how I was treating her whenever I would say yes to something, then tell her I was putting that expectation on her as, hey, you're here to watch the kids while I go do ministry, and that's not okay and that's not fair to her.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's something to chew on. The overflow thing is tough because I'm not, mr Ministry, like leading hundreds of things and doing this and that, but just the small part that I have of, just like the couple of dudes that I disciple and some dudes that are pouring into me and that sort of thing like even that, like that small scale I've found myself like and I've gotten better at this recently, but just found myself like leaving my wife to go to a dude for breakfast and stuff, while she's like drowning somewhere, and it's like what am I thinking? So just that overflow is such a quality thing, not just in ministry, but your life is a ministry, right Like, just like being a follower of Jesus pretty much. At least I think like everything you do is pretty much ministry in one shape or another. Obviously we have ministry organizationally, but it's just that overflow of like having a good marriage, like people can tell, like people can look at your family and look at you and be able to tell like if you're like standing on solid ground or not. At least I think.
Speaker 2:And I love that you share that, because I think sometimes one of the best ways for us to minister to others and disciple to others is set the example by our actions. To go Sometimes you know what I need to say no to other things to be able to say yes to my family and I had a mentor in my life teach me that because I was like I think I used to. I would try to spiritualize it, to go oh, I got to say yes to these things because I'm not good at saying no, and he just snapped me out of that and goes no, you are saying no Because every time you say yes to someone else, you are saying no to your family, or you're saying no to your own spiritual wellbeing, or you're saying no to taking care of yourself. Don't think just because you always say yes, you're not saying no because you're also saying no to other things. And so sometimes when you're saying no to someone else because you're saying yes to your family, that speaks volume to that, especially when you go hey, the reason I can't do this is because my kids have a ball game or tournament and I want to be with them, or I need to take my wife on a date because we have done that. And so when you're doing that is a form of ministering to others and disciple and others because you're setting that example. We had our son this past summer, who had significant special needs, went to be with Jesus, and when he did, when Titus went to be with Jesus, we just cleared my calendar for two months of no travel, speaking, preaching or anything. And so whenever I backed out of events and explain why, of course no one had an issue with that. But what was so ironic is how many text messages or DMs I would get from young adults, college students, teenagers or youth leaders or pastors that go hey, we know you couldn't come and we know why, and we just want to say thank you for being at home with your family, thank you for setting an example that your family is most important to you all. That and is anyone a weird way it's almost I joked with our team is I got more positive feedback from backing out of something than I probably would have if I would have showed up and preach. So it's like me actually backing out to take care of my family minister to people more in a way than me showing up to preach.
Speaker 3:I like when you use the word harmony because a lot of times I think as a young, like a young married man, like I've got three kids and we have a fourth on the way, and it can seem like it can seem like the enemy in the world, in your flesh, want to make your family end quote ministry like a competition, like they're competing against one another. And that can even happen for a single person where, like your calling and your work can be considered this like competition and there's this idea of living missionally. But you got to do that on the side. And so I like when you use the word harmony, because if the concept of harmony and being on mission is related to relationship right, like the whole purpose of the gospel in the kingdom is to restore relationship then it would stand to reason that the most significant relationships that you have committed to and that God has given you responsibility over and care for, first and foremost, like harmony builds based on harmony that comes before it. So I like that you use those words because it's not, it's more like a conversation of, like resource or harmony. There's a building of consistency in harmony, but if there's disharmony in your most core relationships, then that disharmony is going to maybe not necessarily multiply exponentially, but it's going to. It's going to create issues like outside of the home, like I just like. The harmony is a really good word because it can create competition, but it's not because it is actually competition. It's because there's like fractures at the footing of your household. Would you say, am I putting words in your mouth? Is that making sense?
Speaker 2:No, man, you're spot on. And because, and for me, like I take everything so literally sometimes that whenever I was trying to do the balance thing, being honest, to go okay, like, I'll take it literally okay, four hours of intentional family time tonight, so that means I got to find four hours of intentional ministry. Or hey, I was gosh, I was gone all week at youth camp with all these students. So therefore, next week I need to just make sure it's all family and no ministry. And so it was like you said, it's almost like waging war, is like tick for tag when I was like ledgering off. And here's the deal is, that's not how life works, because there's the rhythms and flow of life and you don't know what's coming day to day, right? So if someone in your ministry has a crisis and they have a family member die, are you going to go? Hey, I did all my ministry yesterday. Today's family day no, of course not. You're going to be with them in the power of presence. So there's going to be sometimes and rhythms in your day, your week, maybe even stages of life where you feel like you're doing more time of ministry, but there's a reason why that is. And then there's going to be other times. We go now my family needs me, so you don't go. Oh, yesterday was family day and now my kids are sick and I look at my wife and go, yesterday was family day, babe, today's ministry day. We got to balance this. That's not helpful to her because things have it, and so it's more of a flow to. And then when your kids are young, sometimes they need a lot more of your attention than they may when they become 20, right, and so there's going to be some seasons where you feel like it's more family time than ministry time, or there's more ministry time than family time, and it just all harmonizes together. I think that's why it's so important, if you can, to involve your family in the ministry as well, so that sometimes it's beautiful because it's family time and ministry at the same time, because what better way can I spend time with my daughters than to go? Hey, they're traveling with me as daddy goes and speaks and they travel with me as a 17 year old, 12 year old. That's family time, but we're also doing ministry and they're getting to see that firsthand that's good, shane.
Speaker 3:Yeah, grant do you have? I have one more question on that, and then grant yeah, I was going to completely change the subjects again. It's just the last thing you mentioned, because I felt like Graham was going to change the subject. Oh, yeah, that fine line. Like you mentioned the idea of emergency, and this has been something I've learned there's always a fire burning, but there's always and I don't say this callously, but there's always someone dying, there's always. So there's. There is like a callous part in my brain that says, to some degree, if everybody else is dying and your wife and your kids are falling apart and and or everything is falling apart, it's you lean into the ones that are your closest responsibility first and that that can they almost sound like a business decision and not a personal decision, but it's like you when Jesus said the poor will always be with you. I feel like it's been a hard revelation to accept that there's just a promise that you're not here to save the world and like God isn't going to give you, like every problem in your life and every emergency around you for those that you love are not your yeah, your obligation, but that that feels like one of the hardest things to deal with. So how and we can end on this subject on this note but what is that balance looked like?
Speaker 2:to just Grieve, the inability to be Jesus, to be all things to all people right yeah, I think one of the things, that Another thing I wish I would have learned early on in ministry and again, maybe, maybe you can it's like when people go, I'll wait till I'm ready to get married before I get married. You're never gonna be right. I'm a big get. Part of the growing in marriage is actually being married. So you're like learning. You're learning on the job, all right. So maybe it's the same thing with ministry is, or just living what what God's called us to do, of loving him, loving people, making disciples. So some of it is just like you learn it as you do it and maybe sometimes when you go, I wish I learned this earlier. Maybe there was no way to learn it earlier. Maybe it's part of life that makes you learn it is. I think one of the things we is helpful is when you learn what is a real emergency, because, like you said, everyone's Emergency in their eyes. They want it to become your emergency too. And then sometimes let's just be honest Sometimes people's procrastination they want that to become your emergency because they procrastinated. Now they feel pressed and they want their procrastination to become your emergency. So what is a real emergency? God's ever so many times is hey, man, my wife just left me. Okay, yeah, that's probably an emergency, like the power of presence. This is a brother in Christ's. Like I need to be there for him. But when someone calls and goes, hey, my cat is throwing up, can you? I'm sorry, man, I know that's important to you. God bless your cat, but that's not an emergency to me. So I think learning what is a real emergency, what, what Requires immediate attention, what will work itself out and what is something that someone needs to journey on their own with, and not you coming in and trying to play Savior for them, and I think, trying to understand what that is. And then part of that is Discipling others to go, hey, let's sit on this for 24 hours. You don't require my attention right now. Maybe some of this. You need to go to the Lord for 24 hours and I'll come back around. Or you know what? Like you need to learn to Quit asking people to come, put out fires that you're constantly creating, and so with that, I'm gonna. I'm gonna disciple you by not coming and risking you out of this situation, or some is man. That's a legitimate need, that's a legitimate emergency. I'm on my way, and so I think you have to understand what those things are first before you can help lead others. And I think that was me, man, the moment someone call or text, I just felt the need to go, and there was so many times that I would be driving home and go. Man, I just spent three hours away from my family Unnecessarily because someone else's emergency in their eyes they made it my emergency and it wasn't really an emergency, and so I think for us, we have to learn what those are, yeah yeah, that's really good, thank you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, let's give you back. Yeah, go ahead, grant, change the subject.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so this is just something I'm curious about and I know that a lot of our audience is like young adults, so like most of male young adults, and I was just curious on, since you are in young adult ministry, what are the main things that you would say to them life advice and Jesus advice and stuff like that, because I'm a young adult too. I just got I've been married for two years. Yeah, you know I'm 27, so, yeah, that would also be super helpful to me too, of just what's some of the things that you say to to young adults.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm, yeah, yeah, I think I think a lot of times, especially when you're in the young adult, where there's a college student, or Right out of college You're in your 20s there's so many different life Stages and changes that can take place and I think all of us in our flesh, we're trying to feel buoyed in our life, right, so we're like so one of the big life stages for people, maybe in ministry or I mean in college or right out of college, is, oh, man, I got to get married and there was a world. Tell us, he finds somebody and it's the Jerry McGuire thing. And I know you guys are young, I don't know, that might be before y'all, somebody was like you're looking for somebody to complete me, and that's my oh. And then, when you get married, you're like, oh, and then I need kids. Kids will complete me. No, they won't. And you're like, oh, I need this right job. If I could get this job, then it will complete me. Or, hey, if I could get this house, gosh, I want to get out this apartment, I want in a house that will complete me, and none of those things are. So I'd say, just in those moments again, be complete in Jesus, walk with Jesus. I know it sounds so Sunday schoolish, but if you could really focus on your spiritual disciplines in your college and young adult years and your 20s to go man, I'm in the word, I'm praying, I'm truly Complete in Jesus, then all those other things will fall into place. It's Matthew 6 which is one of the first things we learn as believers. Right, seek first the kingdom of God, and all these things will be added unto you. But in context that's falling on the heels of worry and anxiety. And why do we worry in anxiety? Because we want to control things or we're looking for things to complete us, and Nothing is ever enough. And so I just say the best marriage is not Trying to find somebody complete you. The best marriage is two followers of Jesus who are complete in Jesus and they come together. Right, your kids aren't gonna complete you and that's not fair anyway. No four-year-old should be the center of anybody's universe. That's too much pressure on them. Making a three-year-old your idol is not fair to your three-year-old your job. That's never gonna be the thing that completes you. A house Is not gonna complete because the moment you buy, that house starts falling apart. You know me, so be completing Jesus. So I would say that would be the main advice I give is to really truly walk with Jesus, and it was the advice that was given to me Even early in marriage. I was 25, newly married at that time. I just become a youth pastor and the advice that I was given I never forgot. It was like focus on your family first, what we've already talked about, it lie. And then he said this you focus on the depth of your walk with Jesus and let the Lord take care of the with and platform of it, which out that was so helpful. Like you, focus on the depth of your relationship with Jesus, the depth of your ministry, and let the Lord Take care of the with and platform of that relationship and that ministry. Which I think sometimes, if we're not careful, social media Flips that, especially young adults, because we're constantly thinking and how do I get to the platform? How do I get in front of people? How do I become the CEO? How do I become the boss? How do I become the manager? How do I get the hottest spouse? How do I get the newest kicks? How do we're always thinking of, like, the show, the platform, all that, and let the Lord worry about all that, you just focus on the depth of Our relationship with him.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's good, man, that those tie together for me and my mind, when we're talking about living missionally Versus like living simply and faithfully. Yeah so, like that, this idea of Platforming or doing important things, what do you? There can be a right motivation of heart. Like you can see a lot of brokenness and a lot of pain because we have global Like perspective now with social media and internet. So, like, how do you, I Want to say, cultivate and not quench that Passion yeah, yeah, it's great.
Speaker 2:So you look at, say, gen Z if we were to use the term Gen Z, which those are Gen Z's right out of college at the time of this conversation, 2023. Right out of college, in college teenagers. You got alpha generation knocking on the door after that, and so they're cause oriented generation. Right, even when you think of church which that's why I'm so excited about young adults and college students is they want let's just be honest, they want more out of church than just sitting and having somebody preach to them. And then I'm going to a bunch of potluck dinners waiting for the rapture bus to sweep down. Come on, like. They want to be the church, they want to be activated one, but they're cause oriented generation. So I say use that passion. And then our discipleship teaching side is to go hey, let's take that passion and let's give it a higher vision, even a higher vision than just Social activism or even a higher vision than you just changing your profile pic on your Instagram. There's a higher vision that we get to give you to go, hey, listen, you want to be cause oriented. There's not a greater cause than the great commission of Jesus. Like to go. You get to impact people's eternity. You think of how many young adults, man, they're all about feeding the hungry and giving water to the thirsty and building homes and going around the world, but then they're terrified to tell their next door neighbor or their dorm mate about Jesus. And so here's what I say I think a beautiful picture of truly living beyond yourself in a way that God's called you is to go hey, we use physical goods to meet people's physical needs, but we also got to bring a spiritual component, because the greatest need someone has is a spiritual need. Right Like at the heart of every problem is a heart problem, and only Jesus can change the heart. So it looks like this is we don't do one or the other, because if we're only doing good works and we're only activating people to do good works, then that doesn't make us any different than any other social organization. Right, here's the deal is the scouts do good work, the Lions Den does good work, the Alwans Club does good work, like all these things. They all do good work. What sets the church apart is the gospel, jesus Christ. So here's the deal is like hey, we mobilize young adults to go. Hey, we feed the hungry so that we can tell them about the bread of life. We give water to the thirsty so we can tell them about the water of life. We build homes so we can tell them about the one that's going to build their life, because I think that's one area that probably a lot of young people are missing it, especially because Gen Z is so cause oriented Activists. Oriented is listen, friends, as believers, if we only meet people's physical needs, then in a sense we're just making them comfortable all the way to hell. If you want to truly meet people's needs holistically, there's that physical component and spiritual component. That is really a two is a two. You know track, railway, that the gospel goes on. So the moment you remove either one of those, we're going to fall off. So it's meeting people's physical needs and their spiritual needs. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And the depth, like the depth with Jesus is the gas that fuels it, because that's massive. That's something somebody told me pretty recently was just focus on depth, focus on like your personal relationship with Jesus and the depth there, and then that's like number one kind of priority and everything flows out of that. Yeah, and that sounds like so simple and something I should have thought about like a little bit more, but it was just like that's pretty profound to just that is what everything flows out of us is your depth with Jesus. It doesn't matter, like what you're doing for him and it doesn't matter even to a certain extent, like how you lead your family, if you just don't have that real relationship with Jesus for yourself and you're not actively growing in that, like you're not going to be a good spiritual leader and stuff like that. So I think that's spot on yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think even in, because I know especially young adults are so hungry for truth. And what I found is I love college students and young adults especially and they love doctrine, they love theology, they love to go deep, all that disciple and make disciples, especially those that are all in, and I love that. But if we're not careful, sometimes we grow so deep that we become like, like Leonard Ravenhill said, we have like swollen minds and shrunken hearts, meaning like we've learned all this thing but stuff, but we're not really doing anything with it. And so we want to be like this conduit, right where we're eating, we're being disciple, we're walking deeply with Jesus. Like you said, grant, we're going deeper, but then out the overflow that we're also serving others and we're also pouring out, because Paul talked about that right, we poured out like a drink offering. So we don't want to just only receive, but we also want to make sure we're pouring out, and that's what keeps like rivers going right, because the water is constantly moving. I've been to the, I've been to Israel multiple times and in Israel they have the dead sea and if you get into the dead sea you literally float. You can hold a boulder and literally float in the dead sea and the reason you float is because the dead sea is almost 20 percent sodium salt. And you're like, why is it called the dead sea? Because there's no outlet, there are only. It's only constantly receiving water and sediment and minerals. It's only receiving and never sending out. And I think sometimes, if we're not careful, we can almost become like dead sea letter sea Christians, because we're always receiving content, information, doctrine, theology, learning, all this stuff, and when it never goes out, then, man, we can be as straight as a barrel, like a shotgun. We can be as straight as one theologically, but as hollow as one as well, because we're not really pouring that out, what we're learning.
Speaker 3:Yeah, thank you for our episode title Killer analogies. By the way, I got to think I can't turn it off.
Speaker 2:I can't turn it off. I like it. I'm like let's go.
Speaker 3:Here's a man of analogies as well, yeah. They'll make up really dumb ones too, but none of those make it on.
Speaker 2:I usually have about a hundred dumb ones for every now and then I got one.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that little thing you sent me like home, like house of mists fits in.
Speaker 1:I don't know that was sick, but yeah, okay, I'm just laughing, now.
Speaker 3:Let's say you got some grant. I'm blank. My main thing is just so we've got the piece of going deep with Jesus, right yeah?
Speaker 1:We've got the piece of pouring out, yeah, which is huge. We've got, like, the community aspect of which this is a building blocks to me of just a Christian life. If you don't have a Christian life, you can just go back and look at the building blocks A Christian life. If you don't have one of these things, like you're messing up because, like in the US, for the most part, for the most part, you have access to these things. So one would be going deep with Jesus, going absolutely like the depth with Jesus, and then two would be the pouring out and that's what you do with it. And then your home base is your family, yeah, and your community, and you can actively be involved in serving and being served at your church, at your local church, whatever that looks like. I don't care if it's a house church or Methodist church or what I just yeah, that's right yeah. Just get in. One is where I'm at, but obviously don't teach, don't get in one that's like actively, oh, was Jesus the son of God? We don't know, and then it's okay. Then maybe not that one. Yeah, yeah, I just I think you've pretty eloquently described, just like the Most of the pieces, but something that I'd like a little bit of clarification on, because I've asked this to a few pastors just because I'm curious on their takes. Sure, and I know you're different ish from pastor, because you got a ton of stuff going on and you don't have a, you're not like a lead elder anywhere. I could be wrong, but yeah, okay, yeah, so I'm just making sure but just the idea of do you serve? are you trying to serve your church first and then, through that, serve other people? Or is it give them what they need and any excess or anything pour immediately out of it? If that makes sense, Would you be putting more resources in the church or trying to funnel it out of the church? If that makes sense, yeah, yeah, that's a great question.
Speaker 2:Obviously I'm a big fan of the local church and, if you think about it, every really calling that God placed on us was really through the local church. Because even the gospel often when we talk about the gospel we'll talk about how the gospel saves us from things. That's typically even a gospel presentation sometimes is like the gospel saving you from sin, from hell, from death, from destruction. But we also gotta realize there's some two aspects of the gospel, meaning the gospel doesn't just save you from things, it saves you to some things Like. The gospel saves you to a relationship with your creator, god. The gospel saves you to the kingdom of God, god. The gospel saves you to a family, to a community of believers. That is your church. There's the local aspect of it, but there's the big C church too. That the gospel saves us too. The gospel saves you to a mission. You're called to know Jesus, make Jesus known. That's not just the pastors or the elders, that's every believer's called to know Jesus and make Jesus known. And so I'd say the local church. I'm a big fan of doing everything in community to go, cause some people go. I don't give through my local church cause. I support these other ministries and other things and hey, that's great. But God's called us to be in a community of believers and so I'm a big fan of not saying everything's gotta. If you're given to your church and you wanna support other ministries and missionaries, that's great. We do that. We give and tithe to our church. We also support other ministries. But I wanna say, the church that you're in, be in, serve that church, be known, be present, be in community, don't just attend, be a part of it, cause there's a difference between attending a church and actually being a part of a church, actively to give, to support those ministries. And yeah, I'm a big fan of doing everything through the local church and so for me, what God's called me to is more itinerant, right. So I'm with churches and I'm with pastors, and when I'm in different churches, but as much as I can, I wanna be in our local church as well. So for me it's a tethering. As a member growing up playing tether ball, there was the string that kept the ball tied to the pole. And you don't. It's not kick ball. Where you try to kick it as far as they go, no matter how hard you hit that tether ball, it's gonna stay tied to that pole if it's working properly. And so for me, even when I'm out doing our tenor ministry, I wanna be tied and tethered to my local church, cause how can I go serve other churches and tell people be involved in their church if I'm not doing that in my own life? So for me, I think all of us should be tied, tethered to a local community of believers that, yeah, that believe the Bible, that preach Jesus, especially to like next gen leaders and young adults, cause I think, as we, as young adults and next gen leaders, we constantly wanna be creative, we wanna be innovative, we wanna think outside the box, we wanna do things the way no one else has done before. And I think so many times that if we're not careful, we overthink it so much, we forget the basics, that at the end of the day, if you think of the word of God, jesus only told us really to do three things through the great commandment and the great commission, he told us to love the Lord, our God, with all our heart, mind, soul and strength, to love our neighbors, ourself, and then, in the great commission, go and make disciples. And so, at the end of the day, that's all he's told us to do is to love him. Love people make disciples. So everything we do should be propping those up. Anything we do outside of that is really getting in the way of the things he actually told us to do. If you ever thought about, in ministry or in churches or in life, how much that we do in the name of Jesus, that actually has nothing to do with what Jesus actually told us to do. That's scary to think of that. And then when we're talking about living on mission there's no secret to that. There's no secret to it. There's three things that we need in living on mission. There's the Holy Spirit. If you've been bought by the blood of Jesus, you have the Holy Spirit of God. Know this. The Holy Spirit of God in you wants to love people even more than you do. The Holy Spirit in you wants to reach others with the gospel even more than you do. The Holy Spirit in you loves your spouse and your kids even more than you do. So be led by the Holy Spirit of God. Number two we have the gospel. The same gospel that has worked for 2,000 years still works today. So stick to the gospel, all right. And then number three the Bible. I believe this. I believe the word of God is not just a history book, it's a living book. In Hebrews 412, when the writer of Hebrews is constantly describing the word of God, he doesn't use any past tense language, it's all present tense language. He said the word of God is active, sharper, living, cutting. Those are all present tense. Why? Because the Bible is a living book. It's the word of God and it's always relevant. I believe the Bible is just as relevant today as it was 2,000 years ago. So I was like hey, be spirit led, share the gospel, stick to the authority of the word of God, and I think we'll do well. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm sure that you've run into this a couple of times, with the Bible being an active living book, and it's just as relevant as it was then, but I don't know which. This is just devil's advocate, not necessarily anything. I'm just saying the other point of view, at least to me, of just what do you do with kind of more. I get that there's like old wisdom and stuff like that, but how do you approach the more modern? Not threats to the faith, but just like stuff like LGBTQ and stuff like women, pastors or different things like that, like head coverings even and stuff like that. You know what I mean, Like head coverings is in there. What do you do with that? You don't have to go point by point. But just how do you apply that old wisdom to new issues that we face that aren't necessarily completely explained in the Bible?
Speaker 3:Like how do you?
Speaker 1:apply that Cause, I'm sure, as young adults ministry, I'm sure you get that all the time, of course.
Speaker 2:yeah yeah, yeah, same people are like. What about people who say tattoos are sinful? Where?
Speaker 3:does that come from?
Speaker 2:Leviticus or like hey, just three verses later says don't cut the side of your head. So are they getting haircuts?
Speaker 3:Yeah, they're getting haircuts.
Speaker 2:They got that hard part in there. You know what I mean.
Speaker 3:I love that.
Speaker 2:Yeah and gosh, we could do, we could do a whole series of podcast episodes on, like hermeneutics, which is the discipline of how to read really any book, right, any nonfiction book. And so if we apply it to the Bible, it's to go, hey, there's original intent by those authors led by the Holy Spirit of God. You know what I mean. And so I think sometimes we go, hey, we can't make the Bible say something today that it didn't say 2000 years ago through the original New Testament writers, like I'll give you an example Like people go, oh, man, in the end times, on Revelation, when it talks about the things coming out of the ground that's the Apache helicopters I don't know if you remember all that phrase like the left, one, right, oh yeah, these and stuff, and it's like, no, no, like it can't mean something today that it didn't mean then, like John wasn't thinking of Apache helicopters when he wrote that 2000 years ago. But I believe there's also, like you said, it is, I believe, and this is my conviction it is the inerrant, authoritative word of God. And so I think, if we approach scriptures and we go, okay, some of it has errors or some of it was written by God, but some of it was written by people, so some of it's the word of God, some of it's not. My only fear with that is the way I think the easiest way to approach it is you either consume it or reject it all as the word of God. Because if we're gonna say some has errors, some doesn't, some is the word of God, some is just the words of human, then who chooses which? That is, in a sense, you're placing yourself over the authority of God. Right To go, okay, colossians, word of God, romans not. What you're doing is you're placing yourself as the authority over the word of God instead of the word of God being authority over you. And so man, my old pastor, he used to joke hey, from Genesis, one one, all the way through the maps at the back, I just trust it all, even because I think, if you're trusting an interest position, when we start trying to pick and choose what is actually the word of God, what's human creation, what is okay, what is God errors, what is authority, and so, like man, I just believe it's the inerrant and fileable word of God. Now is there things through the scriptures, which is part of that hermeneutic discipline of understanding the scriptures? That was just for a people, just for a time, just for a place, and I think obviously, yes, is there some truths and teachings that are for all people, of all times? Absolutely. So you go, how do we determine what that is? My old Bible professor, you say it like this. I thought it was helpful If you see something say in the Deuteronomy law all right, or the Levitical law, and that's in there and it's directed for the people of Israel at that time, then that was probably something very specific for the people of Israel at that time. So, for example, yeah, not cutting the sides of your hair and not wearing garments with two, mixed clothing, not eating certain foods, and all that. That's for a people, a time, a place, specific. Now, all throughout the Bible it talks about God's design for marriage right Between a man and a woman. It's a firm throughout the Old Testament, it's a firm by Jesus, it's a firm by the New Testament writers. That is a teaching that is relevant and dictative for all people of all times Not lying, not stealing. The Ten Commandments, those are weaved through the whole Bible. That's relevant and a word for all people at all times. So here's the deal is. I think I can today as a follower of Jesus is I can wear clothing that's half cotton and half polyester and that'd be okay, but at the same time, I don't have permission to go lie, cheat and steal or Go be in date whoever I want to, because I feel like it and cultures told me I could. You know what I mean. I think there are certain things there for a time and a place and a people, but then there's teachings of the word of God that's for all times, all people's, all places. And so I would say, let's take you mentioned lgbtqa plus. That's obviously a relevant topic with everyone, but especially young adults and people go. So people will say, hey, shing, what's the best book out there to help with all the sexuality taught? What's the best book out there to help with all the gender confusion talk and all that? And I always say this the New Testament's pretty good. This one say this isn't new. You know what Paul wrote about it in Romans 1, because it was happening. Then to you know why it's written about in Galatians because it was happening. Then to you know I'd Jesus address relationships because it was happening in two. So if you go back in time when the New Testament churches being birth empowered, spreading and exploding. If you look in context, all that's taking place under the Roman Empire. Guess what take was also taking place under Roman? A lot of sexuality, a lot of homosexuality, a lot of bisexuality, a lot of Beastiality, a lot of gender confusion and a lot of trans and dressing like the opposite sex, a lot of pedophilia. You know why Paul addresses those things in the New Testament? Because it was happening in culture. So I'll always say this like those things aren't new and in fact when people go, oh man, it's progressive a lot of times I'll just be honest. Please hear my heart in this. I think progressive Christianity sometimes is code language for compromising on old sin. Like none of this is new under the Sun. Like in the Bible addresses it. So I, as Christians, I think we need to lovingly, kindly, but also boldly and convictionally Speak where the Bible speaks, and the Bible does speak on this stuff, and I think that's so important. I'm so glad you brought it up. I know I'm on a soapbox here, but I'm so glad you brought it up, grant, because those are the number one questions that young people are asking and they want to talk About it. Often it's us adults in the church who are scared to talk about it. But here's what I promise you culture is screaming about these things, one thing we have to realize as the church Guess what? Culture also disciples. Culture also preaches messages. Culture also has a vangelist that's out there trying to recruit to certain views and worldviews and agendas. And so if culture is screaming about these things but the church remains silent, then a whole generation only here is one worldview and then older Christians start getting upset by how young people believe. But we also haven't been a part of the conversation. So I think that's where, as the church, we get the press in, not with our politics, not with our agendas, not even with our opinions, but we get the press in with the word of God, because the word of God does speak on these things and, like I said, I think young adults and college students and teenagers want to talk about these things. It's just often the church is scared to. Yeah.
Speaker 3:And so I've got three things floating in my head on that, and I think this is probably the last, like you, give your feedback on what you think, because everything you said to me is still related pretty deeply to the idea of Community as well. Yeah, so you, like you mentioned Herman, you mentioned scripture being for many generations I'm gonna use some language like many generations, many nations, many times and places like but there's this concept, I think, of what human beings try to do all the way back to the very beginning, where we like to isolate, we like to have what we like to not have diversity where we have a longing to I'll even use the cultural language like to affirm what we see as most Valuable because, like, at the end of the day, like we human beings do what we want. Yeah, and so what I find interesting about the idea of studying scripture in a silo or like yeah trying to build your faith in a silo is it's and I actually have space for, like my favorite dad joke and metaphor, it is man before but we try to. We try to build, or like notate from scripture in God's word and truth, the idea of a perfect manual for living the way that we want to live, like if it were like learning how to fly, or learning how to do or be, and so like it feels Based on our culture and our time and our place and our theological bent. Or like maybe you're bent toward the young, reformed and restless, or maybe you're bent toward progressive Christianity, or maybe you're bent, but whatever it is, if you're not deeply invested in a local community and you're not deeply invested in knowing Someone in relationship, you really don't have perspectives of others. You're really just like setting your own agenda and your own paradigm without engaging in. Like you can have all the opinions in the world of the of of Identity and sexual identity and transgender and LGBTQ, but if you don't know somebody that you're actually walking with, you're like you're not having a conversation. Then to some degree, like your opinion is it's not invalidated, but it's at best naive. Or maybe the word I'm thinking of is like silly, but so I'm gonna stop by us now, but the dad joke is like it. We try to build a manual for living when God didn't give a manual, like we don't refer to scripture as a manual, like he gave us a manual, like he gave us God with us, not a manual for us to notate and get what we want out of it and to refer to. And so I really just like the Way that you've connected a lot of pieces and maybe Holy Spirit is connecting. Like you can't just build a faith walk outside of your household, your own family, your own wife. You can't just build a faith walk outside of the household of God as well. Those are related to one another, like you and your bride being engaged in a local community. So when you, shane, are talking to on last notes, what do you feel like it looks like to walk in step with the spirit God with us? That's a lot of like you mentioned. There's like chaos, like even in a household trying to set itself in order with five kids and I don't want to see him cast as well. I'm so sorry if you guys lost with Titus and there's so many changes that are constantly coming at you. What do you feel like the key components are to remaining steadfast and being able to faithfully engage with that culture. That's screaming.
Speaker 2:Yeah, man, and I'm so glad you brought that up. And then even what you're saying about part of understanding scripture and living that out is done in community and we need that because I just echo what you're saying there. I grew up in Waco, texas. It's like we have cults in our background. You know what I mean.
Speaker 3:You got Chip and Jayanna Gaines though. Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 1:They're keeping each other out.
Speaker 3:Not a cult, but you do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, although there may be some that I don't worship those silos.
Speaker 3:No, they are silos.
Speaker 1:Hey, this is off topic. They have this watermelon thing that'll blow your mind.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1:You cut a half watermelon and you just blend it up and you drink it, and it's just drinking watermelons, yeah, yeah. A little bit of sea salt and a little bit of lime. Come on, man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, see there's a bunch of idol worship going on for sure, yeah. But yeah, the point of the Bible, like you were saying, it's so important to be with legit believers and older, mature believers in the faith. That might not necessarily mean older by age I'm talking about. They've been walking with Jesus longer. Because here's the deal at the end of the day, guess what Cult use the Bible too. If you're cherry picking verses out of context, let's just be honest. You can make the Bible say whatever you want it to if you're cherry picking things out of context. So I would say the Bible is not meant to be eaten like cherries, it's meant to be eaten like meat. You need to consume it all meaning like read verse by verse through books of the Bible, read verse by verse through chip, because you can cherry pick verses and make the Bible say whatever you want. So I just say we need to be in community because here's the deal. We're all going to get whack on this thing. You can go, especially when you're a new believer and you're trying to understand the Bible and you're going man, it's like man, like the Bible says this you need to mold your believers going nah, bro, you're way off base. Let's pull you back in. You know what I mean and so you go. How do I not get off base? And again it goes back to that tethering. You guys stayed tethered to the word of God. Read it in context. Do the hard work of understanding the original meaning of the author and their context, because a lot of times we read the Bible with our 2023 American eyes and that's not how the Bible was written. Believe it or not, america was not at the center of the universe when the Bible was written and so we need to understand it. Written 2000 years ago and some parts of it 5000 years ago plus, like in the Middle East, in Asia. So we need to understand that. And the word of God is so beautiful when you understand that. I think, also with all the things, like you said, with the culture, genders and the confusion, and social media can be super loud is that's why we got to be in the word of God every day, because here's the deal Every day I can have opinions, I can have preferences, I can have tolerances, I can have all these things, but if they don't line up with the word of God, it's not the word of God that needs to change. I need to repent and make sure my opinions, my preferences, my talent just line up with the word of God. And I think a lot of times we go oh, my feelings are over here and the word of God is over here, so I need to manipulate the word of God to match my feelings. Now like we need to readjust, and so here's. I really believe this, that the Holy Spirit is not going to lead you to do something that contradicts the Holy Bible. So when people go, me and God have an understanding. Yeah, the understanding is he's already written the eternal word of God and you need to repent and get in line with that. We and God have an understanding. Yeah, the understanding is you're in sin and need to repent and walk along with the word of God.
Speaker 1:Yeah, people go yeah, people go.
Speaker 2:God knows my heart, you're right, he does know your heart and he tells it to see full above all things and you need a new heart and to follow Jesus yeah.
Speaker 3:That's really good, man Don't add the scripture.
Speaker 1:Maybe I don't know.
Speaker 2:And I want to say this in a non-smart alec way I know I can tend to attend to lean snarky. I want to say this we can all be that way. Here's the deal. If I get away from scripture for a week, a month, a year, guess what I'm going to do? I'm going to start doing whatever's right in my own eyes. If you remember all throughout the Old Testament, god would say the children of Israel, or the Israelites or the Hebrews, did whatever was right in their own eyes. I just want to spoil alert here. That wasn't a compliment, that was a condemnation. They weren't supposed to do whatever was right in their own eyes. They were supposed to do according to the law of God, to the word of God, and that they would always ultimately be happier when they did that. So I think, if you think about it, all the things we value today as young adults in our culture is all that Do whatever is right in your own eyes, follow your heart, believe in yourself, be your authentic self. It's your truth, your truth, my truth, their truth everywhere, a true truth. It's like we're doing everything right in our own eyes and we almost value that as a core value. But in the word of God, god condemned that.
Speaker 1:That's all it. We usually try to keep it around the hour mark, so is there anything that you got burning that you're like? I got to say this to the across the counter audience Like this is my thing, you guys are fun, so easy to talk to.
Speaker 2:We could talk about this for days. I just want to re-echo, especially as young adults, we're always, we're trying to figure it out. We're trying to be innovative. Think outside the box, and I'm all for that. Be innovative, think outside the box, challenge us. Older cats Like we need to be challenged, but also I want to say, in doing that, I think when we're young adults we overthink it. I just want to encourage you don't overthink it so much. You forget the basics. Remember there's a God who created you and we were all sinners in need of a savior, but he loved you so much you weren't going to leave you that way and he sent his very best for you, his son. And then, when Jesus came, the son of God, who has always existed, took a mission trip from heaven to earth and lived the perfect, sin free life that you and I could not live. Take our place on the cross was buried in a borrowed tomb, and the reason it was borrowed is because he wasn't going to need it long. Three days later, he busted out of the grave. He lives. The tomb is empty. The throne of God is full of the risen King of Kings and Lord of Lords, jesus and friends, because the tomb is empty, we can be full of the life, hope and joy of Jesus. And because Jesus lives, hope lives. Because Jesus lives, joy, lives. And listen, I love it. John 3, 16, 17 and 18. God's the love of the world. He sent his only son that whoever believes in him should not perish for eternal life. But then in 17 and 18, those are beautiful verses. That makes John 3, 16 beautiful is, at the end of the day, jesus didn't come to condemn you. He came to save you. And the reason he didn't come to condemn us is because he didn't need to. We were condemned already because of sin. So we don't need more condemnation, we need salvation. And guess what? You have a God that loves you so much that he provided that for you. So I want to say if that's not your story, dive into that and repent and believe and know Jesus and have the Holy Spirit of God live inside of you. And if you do know Jesus, then just walk in that freedom. Man, god doesn't save you so that you'll be miserable. Now, I'm not saying it won't be. I'm not saying it won't be hard. It will be hard. He doesn't promise you an easy life. He promises you eternal life, but he also doesn't desire for you to be miserable. So I want to say walk in that victory, walk in that freedom, and it's okay to have fun in the name and fame of the glory of King Jesus Awesome.
Speaker 1:End it with the gospel Okay.
Speaker 3:I love it. I love it. That was perfect, Shayne.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening to the Across the Counter podcast. If you enjoyed the show, please rate us five stars, wherever you got this podcast. Thanks, y'all.
