Never Stop Questioning? | David “Naked Pastor” Hayward | Episode 9

Speaker 1: 0:01

Hi, this is Grant Lockridge and Jared Tahta. On the Across the Counter podcast, where we create space for real people to have honest conversations. Today we are interviewing David Hayward and just tell me, David, tell me a little bit about your personal journey and kind of how you got started.

Speaker 3: 0:22

Sure, Well, nice to meet you guys. Thanks for having me on your show and hi everybody out there. You might not know who David Hayward is, but you might know who Naked Passer is. That's my moniker. I go by online and there you go. Yeah, I'm the one behind the cartoons and the videos and the art and the books and stuff. So how I got started? Well, there's a sperm in the seg and they got to get no.

Speaker 2: 0:49

You took it further back than anybody ever has.

Speaker 3: 0:52

Oh yeah, I grew up in a very conservative Christian home and make a long story short I got really. I really really got involved in my teen years, like with youth group and then, you know, with all that kind of stuff, like whole hog, I went into the deep end. And also with the Bible, I still have my Bibles from when I was a young person, underlined over and over again, you know, with different colored crayons and markers and all that. And as a result I went to Bible college in the States. That's where I met my American wife, lisa. From there I went to seminary. I got my master's in New Testament studies and again, this is the truncated version. But then, long story short, I ended up in the ministry and served churches as a pastor for about 30 years and then, in 2010, I left the ministry and decided to, you know, put all my efforts into my blog, which had been doing for about five years, called nakedpastorcom. And, yeah, so that's what I've been doing ever since, for the last 13 years, full time as a naked pastor. So it was in 2005 or six, when I had already been blogging for a couple of years. I decided to try cartoons and see if they would do anything. You know I'd been drawing and painting my whole life. My dad was an artist and you know I just was around art all the time. So I thought I would try cartooning and they took off. And so, you know, I've been doing cartoons every day ever since. So that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Speaker 1: 2:41

What kind of what kind of cartoons do you draw? I saw some of them on your, on your page. You mind going into that a little bit?

Speaker 3: 2:50

Yeah, so I I'm, of course, you might have gathered already, I'm quite interested in spirituality. I'm interested in religion, it's effects on people, positive and negative. I have also had a lot of experience with the church and with ministry and community. So I'm interested in all those things. So my cartoons are mostly to do with, you know, challenging, critiquing what I think is going on in the whole religious Christian church community and trying to encourage better ways of doing church and community and, you know, critiquing those things that I think are harmful for people, divisive, exclusive and so on. So my cartoons are kind of all around that. So a lot of my cartoons have to do with, you know, theology that I think is damaging or silly or stupid. You know it'll have a lot to do with the LGBTQ community. That's a lot to do with feminism and church and religious and spiritual abuse. You know all that kind of stuff. So I'm quite even though there's quite a diversity to my cartoons, they are basically to do with Christian religion, critiquing it and so on.

Speaker 1: 4:26

So describe to me kind of what that transition looked like from going to pastor to more of a blogger, kind of critiquing cartoonist.

Speaker 3: 4:40

Well, I'd always been critiquing, like I was never a company guy, although I was a part of the company. I always struggled with my call to ministry and being in the ministry because I was very much aware and could feel it and sense it and was even complicit at times with the systemic issues that come with any kind of an institution and like systemic abuse and whatever, and so I always struggled with that. It was a real struggle for me to the point where, in 2010, I felt the only way that I could be really free as an individual was to leave the ministry. So that's and I was right like after 2010 when I left the ministry. That's when I really felt like I could let loose and continue doing what I was doing. Some people claim I'm still in a kind of a pastoral role online because I still continue to help people in their journeys from point A to point B. But I'm not. You know, I'm not ordained or I'm not under any authority or any denomination or any church or anything. I'm completely on my own and I like that, although you know there's some people that say you know who gives you the authority to say what you're saying or who you know who's giving you permission or anything like that. So it's a unique place that I'm in where you know, I know a lot of pastors and so on who've left the ministry and they just leave it and totally move on, whereas I'm still kind of in the game, even though I'm not wearing the uniform.

Speaker 2: 6:34

Yeah, that kind of is something on my mind, you know, like being free and even how you said it, like some people will ask you, you know who gives you a ride, or things like that. And like our podcast is intentionally not designed to be combative, right, like we. But we also want to listen to understand. So that was something that crossed my mind. David was like not who gives you the right, because that that was like a combative question, but like where does your anchor of critique come from, if that makes sense, like you know, that still holds the idea of right and wrong. right, so we could get super philosophical, but like there's still a, there's still some anchor of like, right and wrong and truth. So what guides you in that, in your art and in your language? Does that make sense?

Speaker 3: 7:29

Yeah, so, like I said, I was in the church for my you know pretty much my whole life, and then in the ministry for 30 years serving different churches and even planting, you know, a couple of churches from scratch and so on. So I think that would be my number one on my resume is my experience. Like I have a ton of experience in the church, and not just in the church but in the inner workings of the church as a pastor. So actually that's why I called myself the naked pastor was I wanted people to, because there was a lot of pastors who were blogging up and I wanted mine to be unique. So what I planned to do was to just pull back the curtain on everything that was going on in the church and I wanted to be completely open and honest and raw and real and transparent and vulnerable, authentic. So that's why I called it the naked pastors just me being real and expose, expose, you know, not just the good stuff but also the bad stuff that goes on that nobody talks about or wants to talk about, and so that's number one is my experience. I've been there, done that, I've got the t-shirt like I've been around the block. I know what I'm talking about because I was there. And secondly, I think, is that I really care, like I'm not an enemy of religion, I'm not an enemy of the church, I'm not an enemy of Christianity or an enemy of theology, like. I think all those things have value, I think they can benefit us, but unfortunately what I see is they often turn toxic pretty quickly and I feel like the gravitational pull of institutions is towards the dehumanization of its members and it takes real intentionality to encourage, to combat that gravitational pull and provide, like you guys are trying to do with your blog podcast, a safe space for people to be authentic. There's very few spaces like that in the world and I think the church has an advantage and a corner on the market, in fact, to provide such spaces. But unfortunately, most people you know, most people I know don't consider the church the safest space to be authentic. So I think the church dropped the ball there and I would like to encourage it to pick it up again and give it a good try, because I think it's needed more and more today.

Speaker 1: 10:11

Absolutely. So where do you stand as far as Christianity goes? Would you say that you're a believer? Would you say that you're searching? Would you say that you, you know? Where do you kind of stand on those things? I'm just curious.

Speaker 3: 10:31

Yeah, decades, I really struggled with theology, I struggled with the Bible, I struggled with the church, the ministry. It was because I really did want to know what the truth is Like everybody, everybody wants to know what's really true. And I could never get an answer because I didn't feel like the answer was black and white. And I remember the first time I really started questioning my beliefs I was graduating from seminary and I actually wondered gee, I started questioning whether or not the Bible was really inspired, and that was a devastating moment for me because all my beliefs hinged on that. And so I wrestled with that stuff for literally decades until in 2009,. I just sort of had this moment where it all came together and I realized that on a deep and fundamental level, we're all connected. We're all one and I was reading quantum physics at the time philosophy, mystical theology, eastern religion and so on and I think they're all speaking the same kind of language, using different words of this deep connectivity between us all and this unity of all things somehow. And when I saw that, I realized that all these words Christian, buddhist, hindu, jewish, muslim, atheist all these things are just labels that are tacked onto the surface, but at a deep and fundamental level where there's only one reality and all these words are just attempts to describe it and label it and contain it and understand it and articulate it. And so when people that's a long answer to a short question, but for me I don't identify as Christian, although I don't reject it. It's like I say to people I say Christianity is my home, but I have cottages everywhere and it's deeply embedded in my DNA. It's a part of who I was. The church has been my spiritual mother. I don't live with her anymore but it's still my spiritual mother. But I feel at one with everyone out there, no matter what their labels are and the labels. I don't need that label Christian, although other people are continuously struggling to figure out if I am or not, and for me it's. There is no yes or no. It's because we're on a deeper level than the label. We all share the same reality. I hope that answers your question in a muddy way.

Speaker 2: 13:55

That makes it makes sense to me that, like the idea that we are spiritual beings as the primary identity of reality, even when you get into, like you mentioned, whether it's string theory or physics, or even just the idea of consciousness, like it, a lot of the fundamental frameworks we hold for being start to break down. So, like I understand practically at some level what you're saying and even like the common Christian history says, like God is spirit, like we are spiritual. But I like that you said there is one reality and because of just the way my mind is working, in that there's one section in scripture where Jesus says to Mary there is one thing that she has chosen and it won't be taken from her. Like what, what do you like to me? I would, I would process what you just said is that one reality does have a name. It had, like a person in Jesus. How do you process, like who Jesus is, the difference between Christianity and like religion? And then obviously there's the old CS Lewis quote that a lot of Christians know that you have to deal with Jesus like either he's liar, lunatic or Lord, and I'm not trying to just beat it a dead horse. In that degree I'm not like a CS Lewis Christian right. But like what?

Speaker 1: 15:36

is that?

Speaker 2: 15:37

What is the reality of Jesus? What placement does he have in your, in your life now?

Speaker 3: 15:44

So the, and we have the, the gospels, where they, you know, are describing this, this person, and I feel that the, that the first followers, let's say, of Jesus, even before they were Christian, called Christian in Acts, were so filled with the hopes and dreams and vision and prophecies of the Old Testament that this, this person came along who seemed to fit all of those criteria, and and then, you know, from then on, including after the life of this person and into the earliest church, and and so on, all all of their hopes and dreams were imputed on this person as well. So I, I I'm kind of going with, like I said, with when, when you listen to quantum physicists or quantum mechanics, or Eastern religion, or mystical theology, like I'm talking, like more modern ones, would you know if you've read Richard Roar, or you know there'd be Thomas Merton or Meister Eckhart and and so on, these mystical theologians and then philosophers and so on, where they, they all sort of describe this same sort of reality. And when you, when you read mystical theologians that talk about the universal Christ, or you know the, the universal Jesus, or the, the or what are some other expressions of that, christ, Christ, energy and things like that, it's, it's all that kind of, they're all kind of talking that same kind of language. So I don't see, I see Jesus more as a symbol of, of unity, you know, sort of the expression symbol, the manifestation of this unity of all things, and not an exclusive, you know, leader of an exclusive club of people. I think when we start thinking of Jesus in those terms, then we've we've lost the very deep and subtle message of the oneness of all things that you know, like even that verse that God was in Christ reconciling all things to himself, like that. What is that? That? You know, in him we live and move and have our being, you know, and that that that oneness, that universal oneness I think Christ for me is, is a symbol of that. And you know, there's there's Christians, there's Christians who, and Christian theologians who have thought of it that way. But it's not popular to talk about it that way because it doesn't, it doesn't fit into any denomination or theology and and you know we've become, the world is becoming very kind of tribal, very, very divided, very. You know, if you don't believe this, then you're, you're wrong and you're going to hell, kind of stuff. And there's, you know, hundreds of groups that claim that, and I think they've lost touch with reality, with the capital R, and that I think you know reality with a capital R. I think Christ consciousness is a symbol of that.

Speaker 2: 19:47

Does that negate? So I see like I can see your perspective of that spiritual reality, even like going beyond the physical representations we have of the consciousness of truth. As a person, like we've been trying to describe a non physical reality, which is difficult, from a physical time and space realities Like I can recognize some of that. So my question then, from your perspective, is does that negate, like a physical man that lived and then died, but then an entire religion says rose from the dead? Like what? Do you still believe in that physical or do you believe that to be a symbolic representation in a physical Well?

Speaker 3: 20:41

I think I believe there was a historical figure, for sure. Now, I say for sure, but that's just my, my sense. I believe there was a historical man, but I think there are a lot of the things that are used to describe him and what he did and what he said have parallels all through the Middle East, all through that region at that time, in different characters, different people, different personalities, different sects, different religions and so on. And so, for me, it's not the you know, physical resurrection that that matters, it's the, it's what it represents, that what it symbolizes. Is that? For me, what it symbolizes is that somebody who taught love let's boil it down taught love and was executed because of it, and their followers saw that that love still existed after this cataclysmic event and that this love and this loving community lived on with some kind of a glue that held it together, which they called the Holy Spirit or whatever. And so, you know, I just finished reading a book by Richard Miller, called what's it called? The Jesus Rise from the Dead, I think, and it's a fascinating read because he does talk about all the different parallels you know from that period of time that's found in all different kinds of writings, including, you know, appearing on a mountaintop, walking on water, feeding thousands of people, you know, rising from the dead, execution, having disciples, virgin birth, all these things have parallels in all different other kinds of writings, and but the fact is that this, this, the Christian message of there being, this unconditional love that those in power try to end, continues on in what is called the body of Christ and or the church and in the world. So that's to me, is that to me is what matters most of all.

Speaker 1: 23:21

So how do you define words you know, like sin or you know kind of the teachings of Christ as far as, like, he's the way, the truth in the life, and things of that nature. Like my first question is how do you, how would you define, you know sin and what are some of the things that that entails? And my second question would be like if Jesus said it, is it immediately valid or is it just you know, you take some stuff and you don't take other stuff and you make it into you know just kind of the religion of love?

Speaker 3: 24:04

So I went when, when someone says Jesus said it, I go a step further back and say John said, jesus said it.

Speaker 1: 24:16

Okay.

Speaker 3: 24:17

And not even necessarily John. We're not quite sure who actually. And it's the same with Paul's writings. You know Romans, galatians and then the. You know Colossians, ephesians, philippians and then pastoral epistles and Philemon, etc. Etc. Most scholars now agree Paul might Paul wrote Romans and Galatians, maybe Philippians, maybe Philemon, but the rest are not written by Paul. That's quite a chunk. So like we need to realize that people at that time weren't writing in the same way that we wrote. They weren't writing history, they weren't documenting facts what they felt were facts like to them. They just didn't think in that way. They were conveying truth through their method of conveying truth at that time, 2000 years ago, which is very, very different from the way we try to convey truth. So you know, when people say, well, that's just mythology and dismiss it, you can't do that with, like you know, Greek mythology and even some Christian mythology or mythology for any religion, because they're conveying truth on the way that they convey truth. That's their genre of writing. So I think it's a mistreatment of the Bible to treat Matthew, mark, luke and John as historical documents. I don't believe in what we believe are historical documents. They were conveying truth through story and poem and prophecy and you know, oral tradition and so on, in ways that we don't think or communicate in that same way. So we need to approach. I believe we need to approach the Bible, appreciating the way that they composed these things. They weren't writing scripture, they didn't think they were writing scripture, they were just writing a story and it ended up becoming scripture. Right, they weren't writing the Bible, at least not knowingly at that time. So when someone says, well, jesus said this, I say, well, you need to step back further and say Mark said Jesus said that, or John said Jesus said that, and then we can start talking about what that means. Do you see what I'm getting at? So you know, even though I was a biblical literalist, you know, when I was a teenager and you know I, you know I was totally immersed in the Bible, underlining it, writing in the margins, memorizing it. Then I went to Bible college and got my degree in Bible and theology. And then I went to seminary and got my degree in New Testament studies and I got years of Greek, years of Hebrew, a year of Aramaic, you know. And then I went on to the University of Toronto and started my PhD studies in New Testament, like I was I'm not kidding guys like I was serious about the Bible, but then I started realizing that it's not inspired in the way that we like to think, that it's inspired like God basically dictates it and then we write it and then we, the rest, read it. It's it. I think that men at that time were doing their best to describe a profound thing that was happening in their midst with the words of their day and the worldview of their day, as limited as it was, but they were using their ways of communication and storytelling, storytelling and truth telling to do it. So I think it's a mist, like I said, a mistreatment of the Bible to to treat Matthew, mark, luke and John, for example, as historical documents. I think we get a lot more out of it when we treat it as something that's trying to convey fundamental universal truths.

Speaker 2: 28:40

Yeah, I've heard. I don't know if you know the Bible project guys, if you've ever seen any other stuff, but they kind of describe a little bit of what you're saying and the idea that you know it's actually more miraculous that you see anything consistent throughout Scripture because it was written over so many different eras and so many different men. So it's almost like the telephone game we all know as children, like there's so many different participants that the miracle is that there's a it seems to be to me at least. There's a consistent truth of God, speaking almost through the quote ravages of inconsistent men, like not abiding by what he says, if that makes sense, but still like showing himself to be true. So like there's a framework in which I relate to what you're saying. And then also still, like you've done, the Hebrew and Aramaic. So like that old word of sin being the idea of being bent, like it was, that there's an order that God has and then there's the human nature to have disorder, like does that still hold a place for you? Of like, because I understand what you're saying. Like, especially in the information age. Like when she began to ask the question what is truth To? me that leads straight to the question like who is true, like is there anyone that is wholly true and I like, I relate to that as like it's no man, but then there is a God that I do believe, like, doesn't have variation. So then our question just can then go to what is? But do you believe, still, that there is a God that is true and doesn't have variation and we're discovering, you know, as human beings, like what is in order and what is bent, or do you believe that there's not? Does that make sense Like a God outside of ourselves that is true?

Speaker 3: 30:47

Like objective truth. There's some truth out there that we can know or not? and that we should be trying to find out. So I don't know if you've gathered so far, but I really. One of the reasons I felt I had to leave the ministry and the church was because I felt I couldn't continue exploring and on my own, without, you know, risking upsetting those in authority over me or the congregation I was serving. And it got to that point where I realized, like I was starting to get, you know, letters of concern, or the head office it was starting to get letters of concern about me and my congregation, even though before then I was pretty much flying underneath the radar. Then naked pastors started getting well known and, you know, people in my congregation were starting to ask questions and so on. So I knew my time had come, where I need in order to let the church continue on in the way it wanted to and in order for me and for the denomination to continue on undisturbed. But in order for me to continue on in my journey, I needed to leave the church and the ministry so that I could continue asking these questions like who is God? Is God a Christian God or is God reality with a capital R? Is God what is WI? Capital WI Is God. What is the basic, foundational source of all things. You know the ultimate being or whatever you want to say, but you can't ask those questions when you're in a denomination, because most denominations, at least in my experience and observation, want God to be their God and that they have the best interpretation of who God is. And you know, I don't care. When it comes down to it, I don't care, and I also and I'll tell you why I don't care it's because, as long as we are endeavoring to love people and serve people and help people and protect people and not harm people or exclude people and so on, then there are people who are Christians doing that, hindus doing that, buddhists doing that, muslims, jews, atheists, agnostics, you name it. People from every religion, every denomination and every non-belief or whatever. Everybody, I think, should agree that serving fellow humanity is the bottom line. The whole law is wrapped up in this one thing Love your neighbor as yourself. Right, so like and I think that's pretty common across all religions like love your neighbor as yourself. And if we're, if we're, doing that, then I don't care who your God is and or not, because for me, the ultimate expression or manifestation of truth is compassion towards other people.

Speaker 1: 34:24

So there's also that. Second part too is love God. Yeah, and I was just kind of like the love your neighbor, as yourself, is pretty profound in self, you know. Yeah, pretty easy to explain as far as you know. There's all sorts of ways to do that, but when it says love God, I feel like that's a little bit harder to grasp, at least with the framework that you have. So what would you say that that means?

Speaker 3: 34:59

Excuse me. So all kinds of other religions have the same thing Love your neighbor as yourself. Oh, and, by the way, love Yahweh too, or love you know Allah, or love God, or love Jesus, or love Vishnu, or love your neighbor as yourself, but also you got to love our God, you know, and that to me, is a cultural thing. It's a cultural thing and I just see, you know, when you read people, like when they do the history of religions or the history of the human race, or the history of culture and religions role, in that you begin to see common denominators that we and I used to believe this. We like to think that God, you know, deposited, dropped down the way we should be doing religion, but thousands of different religions and denominations feel that way or think that way, because that's how culture, cultures work, that's how they implement rules, that's how they protect themselves, that's how they manage the people. I'm not being cynical. This is just. This is just the way it works. And so in the church, like we, we impute our belief of God and believe that he has given us a whole set of rules and that's just, and as long as we follow them, we'll be okay. And that's how our culture, that's how our society works, that's how this church works and functions, you know. And as long as people aren't being harmed and as long as you know people are being served and you know we're loving one another and so on, that's okay. But when it's that somehow translates into and manifests as abusing other people, or excluding other people, or marginalizing other people, or harming other people or even killing other people, then to me we've lost touch with what you know, reality is, or what the truth is.

Speaker 2: 37:38

It sounds like, because a bit of what you were saying, like I'm like, like we've said, listening to understand is hearing one another. And in that first portion of like, if we do, if, like you mentioned, it's hard to know whether, once you get into breaking he said, she said down in scripture like it becomes a very complicated conversation. But let's say that that Jesus did let's, if we just go in the premise that he did say you know, you shall love the Lord God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. And he said this is the greatest. And then there's the second to love your neighbor as yourself. When we're talking about like for for David Hayward, who, like who God is, I feel like what I heard you say is and give me back this if this isn't what you're saying I feel like what I heard you say is like I'm I'm not sure or I'm still discovering, like you stepped out of the, the church, because they're not okay with asking those questions, and I agree with that Like there's a lot of dominations that say, unless you hold to this box of this in this way, in this shape, this is this is who God is, then you're not welcome here and like I agree, that's often the way that we uphold our paradigm. But you gave back to me like is there an objective truth or is there an objective like reality? I felt like I heard you say you know, I'm still learning. Is that an accurate description of how you feel in relation to God? Not, not, you're not caring who God is to everyone else, but to you. Do you feel that there is an unchanging objective truth outside of ourself that we should be growing to know, or is it? Are you still on that journey? Does that make sense when I'm asking, like for you personally?

Speaker 3: 39:34

Well, I'll always be on the journey of questioning Like. I even wrote a book about it. Questions Are the Answer. It's one of my books where question questioning is my way of life and every place where I think I've arrived or, you know, come to an understanding I need to understand. As a provisional place, it's temporary and it's falsifiable as well, like in the scientific community, when, when somebody comes up with a theory of reality or whatever it's good, scientists understand that their theory or their claim is falsifiable. It has to be. You can't say this is the truth and that's it. It's canonized. Now it cannot be questioned and that's the way it is from now on although that's what religion does, but science doesn't it has to be falsifiable. Falsifiable because we want research to continue and discovery to continue and to develop. And so, for me, when I, when I had this profound, you know, moment in 2009, where I just saw the and felt the oneness of all things, that to me was this is what God means, I got air quotes. I know this is a podcast. I'm telling your audience.

Speaker 2: 41:01

I'm using your quotes.

Speaker 3: 41:03

This is what God means, this oneness, this, this, this wholeness, this, you know this togetherness, this lack of separation and and no division, this unity, this connectivity, that's what the is, the, what is, even even in the Old Testament. You know the Jewish scriptures. What's your name? I am, it's like. What is that to me is, is God, right, reality, ultimate foundation of all things? So, but what does that mean? What does that? How does that work? Like, how, how do I fit in? You know, how does this make sense with all I've learned in my Christian upbringing and theology and Bible, but also my readings and Eastern philosophy, buddhism, zen Buddhism, you know Sufi mysticism, you know Kabbalah mysticism, jewish wisdom, scientific studies, philosophy, like you know, when you, when you, when you're reading, like I keep bringing this up when you read the Christian mystics or other mystics, or quantum scientists or physicists or philosophy, even living philosophers like Slavoj Zizek and others, and quantum physicists like Carlo Ravelli, david Bohm, these people, it sounds like they're speaking kind of the same language and these are the people who are ultimately concerned about what is true and they also realize that their search will never continue, never, never end. It will never end and it makes for an exciting life, but it also makes for a very inquisitive life. So on the one hand, you're right. I'll never stop questioning. On the other hand, it's hard to make what I think God is any bigger than what is.

Speaker 2: 43:19

Yeah, like I feel like I hear you saying. I feel like I hear a bit of like Second Corinthians three in what you're saying, when second Corinthians three says, like now, the Lord is the spirit and where the spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. Like I feel like I hear that and I can even understand, like from your perspective. There's different mystics and many who have pointed to the spiritual reality as you know now I'm pointing everywhere I'm talking in my hands on a podcast, but like who have pointed to a spiritual reality is most true and then there's the, even just the common human process of discovery that like if there is such a thing as an eternal God, like there's continuous mystery to be discovering in the spirit of reality. But then my like, where that leads me to question is there's a possibility that you can look at that as saying the only thing that can be known is that nothing can truly be known. Like there's almost a philosophical framework where, like, there's no beginning or ever a point of knowing anything in that journey other than we're in the process of discovering. And so, like my, I guess my question would then be and we kind of touched on this idea but the idea of whether or not anything can be marked as like, wrong or not right in a community or society. That feels to me like. Oftentimes I think about that, like even being like, really direct to, like that LGBTQ and continuing on. Like when you say as long as we're not harming one another. Once that goes beyond like physical harm. But I feel harm if you make me like uncomfortable. Right In any demographic of belief, how do you govern? Like? My discomfort. Does that make sense if there's not an anchoring point or individual that says this is sin and not sin? Like does it just become regional? Like? Does that make sense? Like does it just become a cultural mandate of like in this region, this is right because it's accepted, and then another and I don't even mean anything in regard to LGBTQ, I just mean anything in general like rightness and wrongness. That's just a topic of the day that's prevalent Like how do you govern right or wrong once it goes outside of like? I'm made uncomfortable. Why? What you believe, especially when we have social media and a global conception. It might be in computer. Does that make sense at all to you?

Speaker 3: 46:20

The to me. Theology, including the Bible, you know, the church, all these things are to me symbols, signs. So even Karl Barth, the great Swiss theologian, talked about John the Baptist, who was like a finger pointing to the Messiah, and that the Bible is the same. The Bible is a sign pointing to something. It's not the thing itself. Like we, you know, when you see a sign to a certain place and you want to go to that certain place, you don't get to the sign and then park and stay there. You want to go to the place. And it's the same with words. To me are signs symbols of something. The word to the word rose is not the rose, the word is not the thing. But too many of us camp at the sign. People are camped at the sign of the Bible, camp at the sign of the church, camp at the sign of Christianity and and so on, camp at the sign of God. But the word God is not God, the word is not the thing. What is beyond that word, what's beyond the idea of? You know that we're talking about? So for me it's, it's, it's not, it's not a sad or depressing thing that we're on this journey, every deposit of conversation into this discovery. We understand, we accept them, we understand and we appreciate. But we also know this is provisional, it's only for here and now. We want to know what's beyond the word. We want to know what's beyond the word God. Is there a reality that this sign is pointing to or not? And too many of us are afraid to go there. I mean, we even have stories in the Bible where God invites the people up the mountain to come and have a meeting with them, and all the people are like Moses. This is freaking us out. You go for us and tell us what he says. That's human nature. We don't want. We don't want any more. Contact with actual reality is too frightening. We don't want to know the truth. It's too scary. We don't want to touch God or be in God's presence. It's too terrifying and we'll send people in authority instead to represent us.

Speaker 2: 49:05

And I feel that's a lot of what religion is. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 49:11

And that includes sorry man, go ahead.

Speaker 2: 49:14

Well, you almost exactly described the second sentence in Second Corinthians. It says we, with unveiled faces, I'll reflect God's glory being transformed in his likeness and ever increasing glory which comes from the Lord. That's referencing back to the story you just mentioned, moses. Like it's saying just like Moses, except now unveiled. And so that's that's almost even what I'm asking, like that fear to come and connect to God, it it says his likeness and that like that's what I'm struggling to conceptualize or even like question with with you and even from our two perspectives. That is a likeness. It's not like any likeness in all reality. And so if you and I are in that process of discovery, like unity or love, like I often find the struggle with like love, is love Like yeah, but it it does look like something. And that's the question I'm asking like to what degree Is, is there a likeness or or is there any type of right or wrong in what love looks like? If we can say like, if I can say it, it anything that you do is in a front to like a piece of my identity. Does that make sense? Like what happens in a reality or society Like any? Does that? Does that make sense?

Speaker 3: 50:48

I think a lot of people misunderstand what love is. I think love has become so Hollywood-ish that we think it's related to a feeling or a preference. To me, love is indiscriminate. It's totally indiscriminate. I mean, even Jesus is quoted as to have said that justice is like like rain it falls on everyone. It's like the sun that shines on everyone. I don't know if they knew what gravity was back then, but it's like gravity that attracts everything. That attracts everything. It's indiscriminate. That's the whole point. That's the whole point. It's indiscriminate. It's not based on my preferences and and. And that's why I do say love is love. And people, a lot of people, find it very offensive and they want to say love is not love. Love, you know, has rules and so on. I'm like you don't know what love is. Love to me is like rain and sun and gravity. It's totally indiscriminate and it's not based on a feeling or an opinion or a preference. And that's why I'm radically inclusive. I'm radically inclusive because that's what love is. You know where you even get to that. You get to that point where, when you understand that, then then you realize love is worth fighting for, and it does. It does come together with that whole thought of unity and that we are all connected at a deep and fundamental, invisible level. You know we think our thoughts divide us into camps, but that's just superficial. It's like the river out there I showed you guys earlier on the. On the surface there's all kinds of ripples, boats going by, waves, branches. Just a little while ago I saw a loose boat floating down with nobody in it. It's a very deep river. Beneath that deep, deep down it's very still and quiet and peaceful and cold. And so for me, all these different theologies and opinions and ideas and everything but at the deep, deep down is this is the truth, and you know faith, hope and love, and the greatest of these is love. You know that's what remains and you know that to me, is is where it's at and where I think we need to be poking around and trying to understand what that means, what that looks like. Like I said, too many of us are afraid. I know this for a fact. I remember times in my life where I felt I was getting too close to the fire and I backed off. I know people who were starting to deconstruct their beliefs or question their beliefs, and it got too scary for them and so they retreated back into a former, you know, system of belief that was comfortable and secure for them, because it's scary, you know, to not know for certain. So I get it, I totally get it, but I think life is way more exciting and way more honest and way more truthful and way more fruitful when we sort of dive into the deep end of okay, I'm going to find out for myself what this is, what it is, what is reality, what is true?

Speaker 1: 54:19

I think I'm having a go ahead, go ahead. I don't know it's like. So I guess my question would be where do you so there's this clear target, like there is a bedrock of something like at the very bottom level there is truth. So we agree on that. There is something that's true. It's not like the statement of you know there's no truth to be found. So you said, at the bottom of the river there is, you know, if you look down deep enough, there is a you know, unchanging, basically calm, still truth. So how do you one know the framework of what that is? Because you know. To me it would be like, okay, god describes what truth is through His word and we should kind of bend our way to that. And maybe you know the interpretations and different things are hard to you know, get exactly what it is. But there's clear themes throughout the entire entirety of scripture that say you know a lot of things about love and a lot of things about different things, and they're like we've throughout scripture. So my question would be how do you even know that there's a target to shoot for? That is truth, and why isn't that truth hate? It could be anything.

Speaker 3: 55:51

The for me, the again, I'll use the river as an analogy. You know, I can go down to the river here with a cup and I can scoop out a cup of the river and I can point to the cup and said this is the Kenapa cases river, that's the name of the river, this is the Kenapa cases river. I kind of be right on one level. Yeah, you're right, that's the kind of a cases river, but it's not the whole river. Yeah, you know, and I think I think this is where religions and ideas and everything get it wrong is that they've scooped out some of what the truth is and they say this is the truth. Well, they're not wrong, they're just it's too small. That, I think, is our challenge. So, and and like Buddha's say, and I think the right is that nothing is permanent, nothing is permanent, everything is flowing, everything is fluid, and so, yeah, the river analogy breaks down when you say there is a bottom, there is the truth. We're going to go find that anchor and then we're going to bring it back and we're going to tell everybody what it is. I think it's. I'm talking about the bottom of the river being the bottom of the water, like the flow. It's constant flow and movement and that nothing's permanent. Like I'm not, I'm not. You know, up until that point in 2009, when I had that moment and I was completely in theological angst, like I, I was ready to throw in the towel because I could not figure out how all these things reconciled. And I had that moment where I saw it was kind of like a puzzle that all came together and I saw that we're all. You know, I saw this oneness and everything and it. It put all that theological angst to rest and I experienced peace of mind for the first time in my life. And it's never gone away. So it's like you know, yeah, I'm questioning and I'm searching and so on, but it's not, it's not anxiety driven, I'm not afraid. It's there to be discovered. You know it's a journey. I'm happy, I'm at peace, I'm tranquil. You know it's no longer. I need to find the truth so I can get to heaven, or you know, or so I can figure out who's going to heaven with me. You know kind of thing it to me it's a very peaceful, relaxing, day-to-day thing, and my biggest challenge now is just figuring out how to be present right now, how to be here now, how to just be present here in my body and enjoying what is, because to me that's the closest to what I think God is. You know the what-is-ness of reality, because nothing beats reality with a capital R, and If you want to personalize that, anthropomorphize that, that's fine with me. But that to me is is the ground of all being, and you know that's what some people use as a definition for God the ground of all being right. So that's what's most fascinating to me and brings me the most joy.

Speaker 2: 59:41

Yeah, and we're coming close to the end, unfortunately, of our time because we try not to go too long, but I, I like the way that you put that last piece and like that is, I Just can't stop thinking of that scripture that says it feels like the piece that ties all what we're talking about together, that says I'm like God is love and there's a. You know, when you even reference like words mean something like love, but you know all these will fade away, that love remains and scripture even seems to point to like that word love Points to something like it's still just a word that points to an Existent force, and then scripture seems to pick that up and say God is love and it's, it's trying to actualize a spiritual reality into a verbal or a literary reality, and that that, to me, like even the I don't, I agree, like the, I don't believe the river has a bottom as much as it has a. I believe it has a, a starting point, but it feels to me like yes, there's always a movement, but when, when, when we look at truth and All these reference points I liked what you said earlier about being inclusive, like there's the quote that many of us have heard and this is the one. I don't know how you would take it, but that Christianity is the most inclusive religion in the world and the most exclusive right it talks about Everybody is welcome, but only being welcome in one name, like that, in Jesus's name, and I don't feel like we're on separate sides In terms of there being truth. That is love. I. What I feel is that there's this, this representative of Love that appeared in person, and that's where I come back to like I Don't know how to deal with the claims of Jesus himself, like regardless of tradition and religion, right, but just the claims of Jesus himself. Either he was insane, or or it does feel like like, if I know we can get into like, well, did he actually say that? Like the mark say he said that and and, but it still seems to hold that there's enough reference points and some of the things that he said that either he was a crazy person or a liar, or there was a representation of Love that pointed toward the source of love, like it. That's what I feel like I even hear us Saying. Is that, yeah, like, a lot of religion gets it wrong and a lot of tradition gets it wrong, if you will, but there I don't think anything can be known, except that there is a source of where love began. I like, I feel that that source has a personage, like a personhood that desires relationship like that, because love, in my mind, is related to relationship. Like that, to me, like if I scrape away everything else and I say, david, like, does love have a? Does it have a a? Does it have a palette upon which it's being painted? To me I feel like that palette is, it is relationship in some way, which means there's a personhood On the other end. Does that, is that whole truth? Does that make sense? Like I get, I get how you said, like Whatever way you need to paint that is kind of what I've heard you say like I'm okay with that, but would you, would you still feel a, a truth, and like there being relationship there? And like the whole purpose of reality is to to get back to a truth of relationship.

Speaker 3: 1:03:40

Well, if, if we do believe God is the all-in-all, there's relationship, whether you know it or not. What I feel Christianity's first mission was was to inform people of that relationship. That's what I I'm talking about. Earliest Christianity yeah, go paint, tell everybody the good news. It wasn't go sell everybody a great program or you know a great way to get saved and all that. It was telling the good news that we're all in relationship, we're all loved, everybody's loved. Go tell everybody the good news. Well, we've turned it into something else. Right, it's obviously turned into a great agenda or or something or other. So like, if, if we really do believe God is the all-in-all and then Paul was quoting a philosopher, when it Wouldn't, he said it's him we live and move and have our being that you were in relationship. Whether you know it or recognize it, or want to admit it or not, we are in relationship. That's what love is Saying, that's the message of love. I believe it's the people who want to decide, the gatekeepers who want to decide who is a valid recipient of this love or not, are the ones who are excluding themselves From the party, like the older brother. That's that's my opinion. Yeah, love, love is love, love includes all. It's the people who say well, yeah, love includes all except these people. They're the ones who are actually saying I don't want to be a part of this party. I don't want to go because those people are there. Do you think there's? Yeah, you're right.

Speaker 2: 1:05:31

Even, even.

Speaker 3: 1:05:32

David Bohm, who wasn't a believer. I'm talking about the quantum physics. I'm talking about the quantum physics, one of the most famous whoever lived. He's gone now, but I I Read an interview where he felt Like at the bottom of everything, all of his studies and everything, that there was this he felt love. He was also a bit of a mystic and he felt that this, this force Pulling us all together, this connection, was love. And the guy said do you feel it's a personal thing, like, like. And he said it feels personal. Yeah that's as far as.

Speaker 2: 1:06:24

Right, because you touch reality, like that, that is experience of reality, like there's some personal Participations and right. This is my last question, would you, do you think there's anything that, because we've kind of circled around the the wagon of sin a little bit like, do you think there's? If the longing of love is relationship, do you think there's anything that would Remove you from that? Because, like, that would be the definition, so like, is there any way? We are in relationship, that's the good news. Do you believe there's any way to be separated from that relationship?

Speaker 3: 1:07:02

Yeah, I just said by Trying to make it exclusive to certain people. Like I said, like, love is indiscriminate, but when you want to discriminate, that's when you're breaking the fundamental reality of what love is. The fundamental reality of what love is. Processing and that's. That's a definition of sin. When you miss the mark, right it's. It's like man you're. You don't know what love is man like. You've missed the mark there. If you want to call that sin, I don't care. For me it's a profound. It betrays a profound misunderstanding of what, of what love is. So, and that's that's the way I operate online with my communities, my online communities, my Instagram community, my online community, the lasting supper. When. When you say I can't believe you're supporting that kind of people and I don't want anything to do with you, I happily let them go. They're the ones who are excluding themselves. I'm not excluding them, although I do sometimes delete people's hateful comments or block Hateful trolls when they are trying to harm other people by their beliefs and words. So, but that that's them not participating in what I think Love is, and so yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:08:56

So what I'm, what I'm hearing you say at least, I think so. Is this statement correct in your view, that Discrimination is is the biggest sin? Would that be a true statement?

Speaker 3: 1:09:14

Well, I don't even like to use the word sin, because I think that was a socially constructed word. Okay and but Anything that harms other people, especially unnecessarily because of discrimination and hate or fear or whatever, to me is one of the first manifestations of not understanding what love is. You know, I don't know if you've ever seen the steps to full on genocide of a people or a culture or a race or a tribe or whatever. There's very subtle steps that get you to that point and experts in genocide can detect very, very early on when an idea can eventually manifest itself in a genocide, so that when you start calling people sinners or animals or cockroaches or useless or whatever, that's the first step. When you label them as other and different and bad, that's the first step. Hopefully, along the line, you know there's a barrier that prevents them going further and that there's policy put in place to protect these people, the marginalized people or discriminated against people. Hopefully there's policy put in place. But, as we're seeing here and there around the world, some people don't mind seeing some people discriminated against, targeted, and people can see the writing on the wall that's also taken from the Bible. They can see the writing on the wall that there's genocide in their future if they don't stop it now. And so, yeah, discrimination is, yeah, a first step, but a deadly one, in my opinion. Potentially.

Speaker 1: 1:11:32

Jared, you got anything else, because that's about time I feel like you've been chewing on something over there.

Speaker 2: 1:11:40

Yeah, I just like I agree with so much. And then what we've talked about, and there's pieces that I'm not trying to put us in a box or anything. I just like you know the old I'm sure you know the old argument about relativity, like if something's right for me but then it's contrary to what's right for you, like that would be the. That's the struggle.

Speaker 3: 1:12:06

Sorry guys, hang on, hang on. Sorry, I accidentally hit a button.

Speaker 1: 1:12:13

You can edit that out.

Speaker 3: 1:12:15

What's right for me isn't right for you, and so on.

Speaker 2: 1:12:18

Yeah, like that that's the ultimate argument of discrimination, right? And the problem obviously comes when if two things that are right for two separate people come in conflict, like at the end of the day, like my question I still feel like I'm struggling with and just relating to the idea of truth, is, you know, if something I say makes me feel discriminated against, that's not a problem in an affluent culture with plenty of space where we can get away from one another, but it becomes more of a problem when we're when we don't have as much space. So, like my question is what, like who, draws the line of what's discrimination and what's not, if that makes sense, like at what point there's a point when society starts to break down, if anything can be discrimination, like I'm going beyond the lines of like color or sex or sex, does that make sense? What I'm asking, like is can anything be discrimination? Because it almost, not to say in like a negative way, but it almost could mean that, like there could be any number of. This does not come from a spirit of me, like criticizing as much as I just don't understand Like the reason the plus is there is because, like there could be any number of ways that one may identify as feeling discriminated against. How does that not break society? Does that make sense? Like when? How does that not bring us to a deadlock of movement, because almost to some degree, everything could be seen as discrimination? Are you tracking, when they the only thing.

Speaker 3: 1:14:17

The only thing that causes deadlock is when people are no longer willing to sit down at the table and negotiate and figure it out. Secondly, when they no longer want to listen to the actual victims of discrimination or people who feel they've been discriminated against. So, for me, that's what love does Love listens, love negotiates, love works things out, love figures it out, love listens to victims, love you know, so, on and so forth. Also, and this is important, love appreciates diversity and encourages diversity instead of homogeneity. Homogeneity is boring and it's autocratic, it's authoritarian, it's a dictatorship. True love expressed is very, very, very diverse, very diverse. All kinds of people and that's why we're getting all the letters and numbers and so on is because people want to be recognized for who they are and no longer be discriminated against, and I think that is a very valid, valid thing that we should listen to. And I, that's just what love does it sits down at the table and listens, and then we all work it out together, instead of some person marching in and saying this is how it's going to be from now on. That's not love, that's, that's a dictatorship, that's authority. And you know, love and authority don't cooperate very well, because authority wants power and love doesn't care about power. So that's that? Locks only happening because people aren't willing to listen, and in my opinion, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:16:10

Yeah, yeah, I agree with you. And in the aspect of authoritarian regime, I mean even every, every single tyranny this existed has always been to make everybody look the same. It's to eliminate diversity, in whatever capacity.

Speaker 3: 1:16:35

Well it doesn't just happen. It doesn't just happen in cultures like societies, it can happen in churches, it can happen in any institution or organization, right down to the family, where you demand your kids all fit a certain mold. You know, so it's, it's this authoritarian way of doing life. It's rampant everywhere. So it's not not just in the US or Canada or Holland or you know, wherever it's it's, it's everywhere, right down to the smallest unit of communities like families. So you know, I I think if more of us understood what love was and it's indiscriminate nature, I think, and cared about seeing this played out, practically speaking, in society, I think we'd have a lot more success and a lot more peace and a lot less discrimination and violence.

Speaker 2: 1:17:42

That's the one part that I, I guess remains to be seen, as it were, like we'll see how the world plays out because, like, if you get, you know, 100 of us in a room and we are attempting to communicate on working things out at the table and we're trying to move forward together. I've been in those realities, I'm sure you've been in those spaces where there has to be some objective, authoritative person leading the conversation to help facilitate and dictate, like how we have order to even have a conversation or even move forward in that.

Speaker 3: 1:18:26

No, there doesn't, no, no, no, there doesn't. I wrote another book called without a vision, my people prosper, and in that book I argue about how dangerous and harmful visionary thinking is upon the church. And I didn't. That's not original with me, that's original with the Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who talked about the dangers of visionary thinking in the church. Because what it wants, what visionary thinking does it? It imagines the church the way it wants it to be and therefore it doesn't accept the church the way it is, and that's that's destructive. And so and I tell a lot of stories in that book about different cultures and tribes and so on that actually have a democratic method of getting around the campfire or whatever, and coming to an agreement about what they should do next. And even though age is respected, wisdom is respected, experience is respected, there's no boss per se. It's a genuine democratic meeting of the minds and I've experimented with that in my own local congregation before I left. It's messy as hell, it's very chaotic, but it's very creative chaos. But leaders don't like that. They like order, they like management, they like a vision, they like to know what's next, understandably. And so they, you know they exert their leadership pressure upon the group to get it to move in that direction that they want it to go. I totally understand why they do that because it is chaos if they don't, and and so I guess that was my like, not using the word authoritative.

Speaker 2: 1:20:21

But there's always like even when you say experimented, you're participating in some way of facilitating, not that you're authoritatively directing.

Speaker 1: 1:20:31

And so like.

Speaker 2: 1:20:32

I know there's a certain capacity of participation. But even in Bonhoeffer like I believe that quoted because I've read the cost of discipleship where he talks about you know how, like vision, visionary, idolatry in many ways, of your vision becomes a thing that you're trying to direct people toward and then you realize it's hollow and you hate the people and then ultimately turn inward and hate yourself whenever it doesn't become realized. But he doesn't say that that God doesn't have a vision, right, but there's still some holding paradigm of a thing looking to and this is our whole conversation that thing being love. It would be, you know, we can circle back all the way to love as the vision, and so that, yeah, that that thing, that remains to be seen. Go ahead.

Speaker 3: 1:21:29

I think it was life together.

Speaker 2: 1:21:31

That's right, yeah, yeah, you're right, yeah, because cost of discipleship was one, and then that's like the first few chapters of life together.

Speaker 3: 1:21:37

You're right, yeah, and so yeah, I it's a great question to explore because I'm not against leadership, I'm not against pastors and priests and imams and you know every everything. I'm not against that, gurus, whatever, I'm not against that. So I think it's a really cool question to explore and I explored it and experimented with it when I was a pastor was how can we redefine what it means to be a pastor and a leader amongst a community? How can we, how can we create creative, chaotic communities, spontaneous communities? You know, to me that's a really, really cool question to explore.

Speaker 1: 1:22:19

Immediately, what I thought of is like how Jesus, which I think we can all agree at least that he, he did exist and he's a very least a really cool guy to get to know For some, for some, but for us three in general, for cool, yeah, but the the idea that he he, you know super exemplified was the idea of servant leadership, which sounds, that sounds crazy to me to think about servant leadership because, you know, when you think about leadership, you think of a person who's in charge, you know which. This is not by any means I'm saying the good kind of leadership. I'm just saying when somebody says man, you're a great you know leader, you think okay, he's the CEO of a company, he's the you know guy in charge, but the idea of leading people by serving them, it feels like the key to kind of what you're describing.

Speaker 3: 1:23:32

Yeah, and we're talking about communities here. It's different, in my opinion, in business. So, yeah, I think I think different things come to play. The best book on, in my opinion, on spiritual leadership is Henry Nowan's book the Wounded Healer, where he he talks about how we can be people who serve our communities by helping them to heal. But we're with the recognition, the authentic, honest, vulnerable recognition, that we're wounded ourselves and that we're all seeking healing together. We're we're one blind man leading another blind man to bread, and I think that's a cool understanding of what community is, not just in a in a local level, but globally as well, that we serve one another in that way, and I think that's what love is.

Speaker 2: 1:24:34

My summary of my summary in my mind of what, what we've shared, and even when you said, like it's a great question, like I'm trying to formalize what is that question we're talking about? And to me it's does love look like something? And I believe the answer to that is yes. The question is what? What does that look like in our communities? And that's what I hear you say, like that's, that's a great question. And if we don't sacrifice one another on the table when we come together and listen, then we continue to discover what that looks like. Is that a is that a valid summary of what I'm?

Speaker 3: 1:25:17

Yeah, it's, it's. It's we discover, we so, lisa and I, my wife and I, we've been married 43 years, madly in love and still, and we just there's this atmosphere of love between us and then we try to discover and explore what that means every day. We don't follow rules, you know, we there's just it's. It's like a dance where you, you figure out how your partner's moving and you move that way, and then you move one way and your partner figures out how you're moving and you move together. And that, to me, is what community is? It's not following the rules. It's, although there are, there are rules, but you're not following them. They're, they're just implicit, they're there, they become a part of your life, you know, and and, and. So we're not constantly trying to, you know, figure it out. It's, it's like a it's it's. It's an enjoyable dance, right? And I think if we as a human race could figure that out with one another, I think we'd be doing so much better than we are, rather than insisting that it's my way or the highway. That's just. Yeah, I'm pretty, pretty strong about that opinion, and I think most people would be too.

Speaker 2: 1:26:42

Thank you so much for your time.

Speaker 3: 1:26:45

Thanks guys. We went an hour and a half.

Speaker 1: 1:26:47

Oh yeah, I had a fun conversation. Thanks for listening to the Across the Camera podcast. If you enjoyed the show, please rate us five stars wherever you got this podcast. Thanks y'all.