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Logan Rice joins the ATC Team!
In this OTC Episode:
• This episode isn't about telling you what to think; it's an invitation to join a conversation that celebrates the extraordinary within the ordinary and the intentional living that transforms our daily grind into a passionate pursuit.
• Our dialogue dances around the beauty inherent in both the grand and the mundane, touching on the aesthetic splendor of church edifices and the subtle wisdom found in the words of C.S. Lewis.
• We share stories that highlight the intersection of beauty and functionality, questioning the cultural drive towards utility at the expense of artistry. The discussion brushes past the surface, delving into the importance of creating with care and how our investment in beauty can shape both our lives and the world.
• Wrapping up, we venture into the personal landscapes of effort, glory, and identity, drawing parallels between the endurance of Shackleton's Antarctic explorers and the Apostle Paul's reflections on labor.
Join us for this off the cuff exploration that hopes to leave you with a renewed appreciation for the beauty and passion that can be woven into the fabric of everyday life.
Connect with Across the Counter:
Website: www.atcpodcast.com
Instagram: @acrossthecounterpod
00:00 - Exploring Symbols and Christianity
09:40 - Symbols and Traditions in Christianity
18:08 - Beauty and Functionality Intersection Exploration
30:04 - Church Building's Beauty and Function
42:42 - Beauty and CS Lewis's Letter
50:51 - The Intersection of Beauty and Functionality
58:46 - Beauty and Functionality in Creation
01:05:47 - Exploring Effort, Glory, and Identity
01:17:02 - Beauty and Passion in Everyday Life
01:31:45 - Privilege and Finding Purpose
Pull up a chair across the counter. You're one stop shop for a variety of perspectives around Jesus and Christianity. I'm Grant Lockridge and I'm here with my co-host, jared Tafta, and today we have on Logan Rice, which is a lot of fun that we've gotten him. And Logan, just tell us a little bit about how you joined the team the other day.
Speaker 2:It was fun. Yeah, it was a really formal process. Thanks. A lot of contracts, a lot of non what are they called? Ndas, non-sclosure agreements, all that fun stuff. No, yeah, I mean you guys are my friends, so that's fun. And yeah, I think, just happy to help out on some of the kind of behind the scenes stuff we're gonna try to take, just help out with a few things. Instagram sound, maybe, hop on a few episodes every now and then and talk to some of the cool folks y'all y'all have been able to talk to and we're getting to talk to. It's really cool just to as a listener I think I mentioned this the first time and that off the cuff was happening but just as a listener, it's really cool to see the folks that y'all I guess now we have been able to talk to. And yeah, I mean even just your intro just now of across the counter, a variety of different perspectives. I mean it's been a variety of different perspectives for sure. I just had to add about that and I would love to maybe even talk to y'all about what that has been like From the flip side. Maybe the interview maybe gets to interview the interviewers. But yeah, this is a really cool for me. This is a really cool space that y'all have created to allow people to just come have conversation. I am your friends, y'all are my friends. You're the two of the most talkative people I know. So, for two of the most talkative people I know, to sit and listen and have conversation here, dialogue that is pretty unbiased. I mean, y'all are just. It really is just sitting and listening and creating a space. That's really special, really cool. And I don't know of many other podcasts that are coming at it with Jun who's like hey, which one would create a space and the one-stop shop. I think it's a perfect way of saying like hey, I know, grant, you're hard and Jared, you're hard to come to this podcast. You could know nothing about nothing, or you could have been born and raised in a singular domination and never got out of the small town or never got out of the big city and you only think one way or only know one way. And you hear this, and it's not even a. I'm gonna try to convince you to come to one side or the other, or, but it's really just, oh, I did not have a perspective existed. There were some interviews that we've had so far where I was like, wow, I didn't realize that was a perspective that people had and it's either compelling or interesting, or maybe frustrating, not because of their I mean maybe frustrating because of their stance, but also because it's like oh, that goes up against like some core things that I might believe or have always heard, and it just caused you to think and to be able to create a space where people can have those conversations I think it's important where you're not gonna get sales pitched on oh here's why you're wrong, or here's why we're right, or whatever it may be. So, yeah, it's kind of a no-brainer to join and be a part of the team. I'm excited.
Speaker 3:It was a no-brainer for us as well, because to date, logan's podcast is one of the top listen to podcasts on the entire series.
Speaker 2:It's just wild. I don't have a blue check on my Instagram by any means.
Speaker 1:It's like that makes no sense. Quit listening to this episode. Listen to the other ones.
Speaker 3:It's literally like one of our best friends who also likes to talk. Which is a miracle that any of us are on a podcast where we sit and listen to people. It's like the forest. I'm like I'm not a smart man, but I know I need to be quiet. So we'll have a podcast about us being quiet and then listening.
Speaker 1:Worst podcast ever. Everybody's just quiet. It's just a silent podcast.
Speaker 2:Nobody talks, and it's a sleep podcast and that's it.
Speaker 3:It's just the ASMR of Jared breathing in the mic. Oh, no, apparently.
Speaker 1:Jared breathes in the mic, often from our sound guy, our sound team, aka Logan Rice, our producers. But yeah, pull that up, jamie.
Speaker 3:Pull that up, jamie. This is Logan AKA Jamie.
Speaker 1:But yeah. So, Jared, you had some fun stuff about what is symbology, the ology of symbols. What are we doing there?
Speaker 3:Yeah Well, our last OTC was with my wife and we talked about tradition and rhythms and obviously we're in if this'll be released kind of in the December-ish season, and so what's on my mind, like where this comes from, is you know how often in the Christian world believers will reference that like the tree coming into a home is like a pagan tradition. The Christmas tree, yeah, the Christmas tree coming into a home is a pagan thing, or like throughout culture, we could even go like towards Satanism. Like the goat and the star and different things are used to like represent certain like cultural mantras or belief or images. What's weird about that is the other day, or I'm being kind of confusing, but like or as an example in stories that we tell. The Fox in children's stories is often a mischievous, like bad villain, like just repeatedly. But this is where this thought came from my son's name. His middle name is Fox because his grandfather's name was Fox and it's actually Phineas Fox, which I think is gonna be like a dope name one day. But what's interesting about that is like there would be a way where when I look at him I would think like he has a middle name, that's just about like it just has mischievous roots, but like God didn't make the Fox mischievous, like he made the Fox a Fox and the original image that he created wasn't something that was like broken or had like wrong human ideology, it was just like right and good in the image of a Fox or, say per se, in the image of a tree, like whatever we take and then attach culturally to these things that God created don't define those things. So what's interesting is like, okay, there may have been a pagan ritual attached to something, but is there like was there a goodness or a glory in things before? Like before that culture or this culture or the other? And then are all cultures not building based on the traditions of the previous cultures, if that makes sense? Or civilizations, like civilizations pick up the remaining things? So my question would be like one, like where do our symbols come from? And then two like is there anything that's not pagan? Am I making sense what I'm talking about? Like the idea of things being handed down? And then I guess the third piece of that would be like can we use any symbols like in Christianity? Is there anything that?
Speaker 1:So nativity scene, heresy, we pray near it. Idolatry is what you're saying.
Speaker 3:I mean, that's another piece of like that was three wise men that followed a star, and there's some like astrology and like certain pagan paganism and ritual and different things connected to that. They're like I don't have any answers on, it's just it makes it be helpful define pagan. I guess right now I'm saying like non-Christian religious tradition, yeah because often pagan is a cuss word.
Speaker 2:Pagan is like oh, you pagan and it's like. So it's like. But you're just saying pagan not in a bad sense, pagan just not like divinely. Hey, god says this before.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. Anything that's not attached to the order of the McKilsa deck, like the root of Christ, like anything that.
Speaker 1:That comment they're pulling up Melchizedek and this thing?
Speaker 3:Yes, that's my real question.
Speaker 1:Well, first question who's Melchizedek? No, I'm just kidding.
Speaker 3:So maybe could you guys like give back to me what you heard me say just now and then like help me clarify what I'm asking, cause I'm always pondering something, but actually like bringing a question out is.
Speaker 2:I hear a little bit of like the excuse me, was it CS Lewis? At the beginning of, at the beginning of one of his books, or maybe it's an essay talked about the definition of the gentleman.
Speaker 3:Yes, but it's actually I think he related to GK Chesterton's definition of gentleman because, like he loves his book, that's a really hard read, but it was. I'll look it up as something about like the character of man that continue.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I might butcher this, but the crux of that is like, hey, gentleman for years and years and years and years meant this, and then now those like a redefinition of the word, and now gentleman means this, but just, but essentially for decades a word means something, and then a shift in the culture or something happens, and now a word means this, and so I can't remember. I think Lewis makes the argument that being called a gentleman okay, I might get this wrong, but the heart of it is the same. Like you say, oh, you're such a gentleman. Now it means a very like you open the door for somebody. It's like this kind I wouldn't say passive, but just like this kind honorable thing it's chivalrous, yeah, very chivalrous. Gentlemen, you know, decades prior to that still meant chivalrous, but that chivalry was different. It was more of like a I guess firm, I don't know. Look it up, it's really good.
Speaker 3:Or it could have even been attached to like being a landowner like a gentleman. Like it could have had other connotations that came with it, even just in a word yes, that yeah. Or like landlord would be one, yeah. Like that means something now, but a lot of times it means like the dude that manages a property he doesn't own or like, except landlord used to mean like, literally the Lord of the land, Right, and now yeah, and now it's a.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it could be a middleman for a right, you know, for some guy who actually owns the land, but then he hires a company and they manage it and now landlord becomes something like. You don't really like the landlord, yeah.
Speaker 3:So, yeah. But Grant's kind of a landlord.
Speaker 2:I am a landlord, but Well, it'd be a good landlord.
Speaker 1:Everybody loves me, though that's awesome, I just can't.
Speaker 2:You're in the minority if everybody loves you and you're a landlord. But I, so I I guess all that to say. I hear a little bit of that in in what you're saying of. You know, we have these, we have these symbols, and the symbols exists, I mean, within the church as well, like and, and we can we call them holy, right? So are you? Are you asking, you know where, where do those come from? To which I would then probably pull up my phone and probably do a lot of Googling to look and see where each individual thing comes from? Are you? Are you are you truly asking where do they come from? Or are you asking a more 30,000 foot view question of hey, or some of the things that we're doing? We just haven't thought about them because we always do them, and that's what tradition looks like. You know, talking about you having a conversation with Jordan about just tradition and things that are handed to you, and one of my favorite quotes is tradition often hands you the ashes when it should be passing you the torch. So, like an idea would be like, oh, we have this tradition where we, like acolytes, were a big thing in the church I grew up in, where, you know, kids aged eight to 12 would put on these robes and they'd walk down, they'd light the candles before service. That's symbolic, yeah, why did we do that? I don't know. I don't even know what that is. Yeah, it's very. It's very like Presbyterian Methodist type, that just more of a little more formal of a liturgy Light the candle before the service and then you know you did, well, that's symbolic of something. And sometimes you'd go oh well, we do that because that's what we do. It's kind of like watching Christmas vacation every year with your family, like why do you do it? Well, somebody started this tradition and now we just keep doing it. And you love it, no matter if you don't know the origin of it. You know, with symbols there can be things that you do or that you see. Right, the nativity scene, the Christmas tree, we're like oh, this is rooted, the symbol is rooted in a longstanding tradition. And are you saying how did those get there? And should we like?
Speaker 3:Right, so I'll answer your question, and then I'll briefly which is gonna be a miracle if that happens and then I wanna hear what Grant go ahead. You got something to say?
Speaker 1:No, I just, you go on Rances yeah.
Speaker 3:I'm gonna be very brief in the answer. I'm not asking where our symbols or even our representations of things come from. The reason I'm not asking that is because, like anything you pick because of us living in the information age could have endless debate Everywhere, the archeological study, or where the tradition, and also like one pagan culture doesn't own a Douglas fir, like there could have been thousands of places. So like you know what I mean. Like we can get out of that. So I'm not asking where they come from. More of like. I'm not even asking like right or wrong, because I don't think about my relationship with God being dependent on the right or wrong versus like can I hear the voice of my father and I think about it in the way that Paul does. Like all things are lawful but they're not helpful. So to me this is like a conversation about what is helpful, what is not helpful, and then that becomes like traditions often have symbols in family, and so now we're back to like what should we connect to there? So what do you hear me pondering?
Speaker 1:Grant. So the to me, the cool thing about symbols is like a lot of times, so there's two different approaches. Right that I'm kind of in the middle, I don't really lean, but like. So there's Catholic church. That's gorgeous, they have like statues, and it's like if you've been in a Catholic church and you've been in a Protestant church, what do we get?
Speaker 2:You just talking to Michael a little bit more.
Speaker 1:What like in here? Oh yeah, it's golden right there. Okay, got you. Well, let me let me position there. We go. Yeah, yeah, hey there's sound guy. Oh, there we go. I can't roll here to help.
Speaker 2:I didn't mean to interrupt, but I was just gonna stop. No, interrupt me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's perfect, interrupt me. But so just the beauty of like a Catholic church or like the beauty of a Protestant church even there's some really cool ones there also but it's like okay, is it necessarily wrong to spend a whole bunch of money on your sanctuary? Or like to spend, you know, bunches of money and time creating a beautiful thing? Because immediately I think about you know Mary Magdalene, like just pouring out the perfume on Jesus' feet. That was just dumb, right. Like you don't just do that.
Speaker 2:Like give it to the poor, like was Judas said that I don't even know you said that, but it was the people around Jesus. Yeah, also bold, take that. You're taking the sense it was Mary Magdalene. That's a whole speaking of information age debate.
Speaker 3:It's an unnamed woman.
Speaker 2:Often thought to be Mary Magdalene, but unnamed woman, and it's funny you say this. We had. This is fresh on my mind. I like where you're going with this. Keep it going.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, hit me up after the podcast.
Speaker 3:It was controversial. Hit me up after.
Speaker 1:No, I'm just kidding, that's what you. But no, it's just like. I think of that verse of like okay, very expensive perfume could have been used in a quote unquote better way. Like not really, but like it seems like it. Like that's like almost lighting $100 on fire, or more than $100, like a year's salary on fire and I don't know. it's really comes down to like heart posture of like what you're doing it for. Are you doing it so that you know everybody will look and see and they're like man, jesus is awesome. Like look at this stuff. Like Jesus created man in a way that they could make this stuff and it glorifies him. Like that's so cool. But there's also like let's make the coolest thing ever so that we can like get the glory from it. Like that's really cool. I'm gonna go to that church instead of this one, because it's, you know, a sick building.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is a conversation that I have often actually with what I do for work. So I serve at a nonprofit called Premier Arts Collective and our mission is to use the arts as a means of healing and hope, as a vehicle of healing and hope, and one of those kind of means of healing and hope is creating a community for Christian artists, which is a kind of a juxtapositioning of itself. Christian and art aren't necessarily synonyms these days as much as they were back in your Michelangelo, you're right, like you're creating David and the temple and the churches are magnificent and all the top artists. For Christian artists there's kind of this separation in the Christian world and the art world, and so we actually had our creative collective meeting Tuesday. So, like three days ago, mariah led a devotional and the devotional was about beauty and generosity, or generosity and beauty and shameless plug for alabaster and co. The folks who make like the really pretty Bibles have you seen those Beautiful Turns out. I didn't know this. They have a lot of like Bible study resources. I'm like devotional resources. So Mariah brings this devotional to the table. Yeah, not, yet I'll do sponsored ads for some alabaster. This spot was beautiful, anyways. So, and it's about the unnamed woman parentheses, aka Mary Magdalene.
Speaker 1:Who have no clue about that.
Speaker 3:I say go in on that because I'm interested. Like to me, when we ask a question like this, this is the way that the spirit where it's just like, like you're made in the image of God, whatever guys doing in you, like we're cracking open what I think it.
Speaker 2:I think it ties into the symbology a lot, because symbology and just symbols Routed in art and just artwork and their creature, your point, they're created by somebody like you know. Even even the symbol of Christmas day if you want to go in on that, like Jesus wasn't born on Christmas, like spoiler alert, like there are people who have gone through and deep dive, I think it falls in like September if you know, like September 10 through 11th, like somewhere in that range. So it's like oh well, to Christmas in and of itself is a symbol in a way.
Speaker 3:So anyways, Um, and the nativity, like the wise men weren't actually there.
Speaker 2:They weren't there the birth.
Speaker 3:They were like three years old when they showed up right, totally wasn't three, but good yeah so all of that all of it is just representation. That's my point of all asking this.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So a Name woman pours out the jar three. This is I don't know this because I know what I know, because it's fresh off the head 300 Nari. Okay, so for your denari to American dollar, with including in late inflation Calculation, that everybody should know, yeah, it's a year's, two years wages. And they're like hey, what are you doing? Why did you do that? And the, the crux of the devotional was kind of like One. It was an incredible generous act to. It was very symbolic because Jesus then says, hey, she just prepared me for burial and nobody knew what that meant, but Jesus did. But then the, the conversation out of that With this group of artists who's you know day to day life looks like, creating art and poetry and music, etc. It was a conversation centered around Can things exist and not have to have a function like Do, can, can things live beyond their functionality? Because our, our culture right now is very high, useful. Take a park bench, for example. It's like a park bench. Maybe you go to Central Park or a park that's been around for a long time, wooden benches, just insane amounts of detail for no reason. No, no functional reason, no, none of that is like oh well, if you design it this way and you have all these intricate woodworking stuff on the on the ends of it, it makes it a better bench. You look at benches that are going up now in parks. Take Unity Park in downtown Greenville. Brand new, it's just a black metal bench. Same function, same rear end. In a seat One has beauty and one is void. I mean depending on how beauties in the eye beholder but, there is, there is no. I Would, I would highly doubt that there was a large amount of time spent into what's the aesthetic of this bench. It's just, and and you could make the argument while the aesthetic these days is now sleek, modern, and so that fits the aesthetic. But but nevertheless the conversation was around what does beauty look like? And can beauty exist simply to be just beautiful? And then you kind of tie back into creation and God's saying it's very good and it was pleasing to the eye and it was useful, and then and all these things where, yeah, I think, the words you just said pleasing to the eye was useful in his definition.
Speaker 3:Yeah because I'll give back to you what you just said, which is can something exist and not have to have a function? And what I heard was is there existence beyond functionality?
Speaker 2:right, because let me tell you what the most functional thing in the world is is Cutting down a tree and putting in your living room. You know I'm saying right, like we're on the like I think we're on the final year of the fake tree train. Sorry for the people who like hey, you're killing the environment. But like, yeah, like, hold on, it's the best time of the year, let's get into the Christmas spirit. Let me go into the attic, pull down a dusty box, put up a tree in our living room and you just throw some ornaments on it and it's like the best thing ever. There's no function in that whatsoever. Your conversation about the church like there's, there's, no, there's no function in it, but there's a lot of beauty, a lot, a lot of beauty. And when you walk into a Catholic Church or a Greek Orthodox Church and some other churches have been more newer, but even now you kind of see this like and some of it had a necessity but hey, we're in an old Walmart, you know, like that's not a bad thing, it's just. It's just a different thing and and same thing with your symbols in those churches, like the amount of time, like in a Catholic Church, the amount of time that each section of that walk is. There's more time in that than I'll probably devote to anything in my entire life. You know, of like, of the detail and the Tint detail, and here's the numbers, here's the symbols, and so, yeah, maybe, maybe I Don't know if you're asking this chair, but maybe the direction this conversation is going is the symbols, the nativity scenes, the Christmas scenes, the beauty in the of, you know, the cathedrals, a park bench, a, a piece of artwork that somebody makes a Song, right, a song. Can it be useful without making it on the radio? You know, like, is a worship song useful if it doesn't take off and make it? Now it's being looped into the repertoire at your church, like, can can these things exist? And I think symbols are a our representation, maybe, of that larger question.
Speaker 3:Yeah, what I'm asking is always rooted in a principle of, like, fearless curiosity in pursuit of love. Yeah, if someone is actually asking questions related to Discovering love, like if their heart is genuine, like if I'm working with a young man, he's like what about this opinion? Or what about this in scripture? What about this person's perspective? I'm never gonna try to hide, quote the pagan view or whatever the view is that I don't believe is God's heart, because if he's genuinely in pursuit of love, then I believe that he's actually going to find the face of God.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Christ, so my questions aren't ever perfect. Yeah, but even just cracking open the door Begins to lead us, in my opinion, to God, kind of teaching us what he's Revealing. Yeah even in imperfect questions. And I would go back to what Jesus says to Peter when he says who do you say that I am and I'm gonna see. Like that scene as like it's the first like dawn of light on a cloudy day that like hits Peter in the face. He's just like Almost like he doesn't even know that he's about to say what is like you, the Christ, the Son of God. And then he's like, as surprised everyone, I've said something Really, really true. And then Jesus says like yeah, and it's not flesh and blood that revealed that. As my father in heaven, yeah, I feel like a few years ago, when God Began to work in my heart on the idea of revelation of truth, it it just dawned on me that any understanding of anything ever being true and valuable is a revelation of God. Like he's the one that reveals. Like we don't lift the yeah, we don't lift the wool from our eyes and we can't help other people have the veil lifted. Like he's. He does that every time, every morning, anytime. I open my eyes and all the sudden, like a light bulb clicks, as it were, like Jesus is the light of the world.
Speaker 2:Yeah like he turned it on it's a beautiful and humbling thing when you're like I've read this passage like 27 times in my life. It's like how did I miss this? Like oh well, there's this thing called the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 3:So a point a point of this too, like you just mentioned was is related to the idea of time and we come to time a lot and like symbology and tradition and simplicity, like functionality, also has something to do with speed and efficiency, and Fascinating thing here is like I think God's love from a human 30,000 foot view perspective instead of a 3 billion and infinite perspective, is like the most inefficient thing that we can think of of. Hey, let's just like cancel your plans and slow down and be the good Samir, and like picks this man up and takes the time to go to hospital and then reschedules his life in order to come back and care for him, and it's like this is so like we could have been building the kingdom, but we're here like picking up this busted, broken dude on the side of the road. So that's an aside. God may bring that back in later, but, grant, give me your perspective, because what came to mind, too, is the way that we Um Build the kingdom and church buildings now as well, and I mean like sheet metal, like put it up. You know I need 27 acres, because 25 of it's gonna be a parking lot, and like asphalt that thing and just what's the most land I can clear, the least amount of Infrastructure. I'll even say like infrastructure Beauty, like more said, because it's like I just need it quick and clean and functioning. Compared to what you just mentioned, was like a great oracle box Cathedral, and then I'll throw like a final word of like is there all in that? So give me your thoughts on on seeing what you saw. And it was Greek Orthodox, so it was not Italy. Earlier I said something about Italian, but that was in Greece and then other places. Like giving your thoughts on the way we build now it versus what you saw, because I haven't been to Greece.
Speaker 1:Well, there's, there's two you know streams of thought, right, there's, you know bare bones, like you don't want to take anything away from, like worship you don't want to take anything away from, you know, focusing on the Lord, whatever that looks like. And then there's let's Make a thing beautiful so that we can focus on the Lord, so that it brings our attention to him. And if we Ask the question, like you did, what's beneficial rather than what's wrong, like if we're like man, this is wrong in here, of like you built this, you know Beautiful church and you should have given it to the poor and built a sheet metal building, that's wrong. Or you didn't build a beautiful building, so you're wrong because you know it doesn't reflect God in a good way. So it's, the question is what's most beneficial? And that question also comes into like what's more useful, like the utility of a church building or the utility of beauty. And I would, you know, lean towards the side of like Different things have, you know, different purposes, like different churches, like feel and fit different needs, like people all over the place are, you know, obviously, different and nuanced ways, and Like a church that fits those needs is is beautiful. But then, logan, I'll throw this to you how you feel about church shopping and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I don't know. I mean, I guess a question I would have that I don't really answer to, just something to think about is are there churches in Greece and in Rome and etc. That we will never see because it didn't last Right, like is the? Oh my gosh, all churches in In you know, the 5th century AD must have been this glorious Cathedral or like. Was those the folks who made it? Because I mean, the first thing because of my mind is really expensive, really expensive, and you have, and I think you see that in like maybe a modern-day example that is more on the Protestant side is like there's some churches, there's some like presbyterian churches that have been here like longer than like pre-civil war, right, and it's like it's old money and old money is good money when it comes to you know about, you know Maintaining wealth over time and so, like I remember we went to, we went to Minneapolis and there was a church across the street things on Westminster Presbyterian Church, huge church, and there was this beautiful like modern section I guess, if that makes sense, and it was like artwork and libraries and you know, like your kids wing, like it was just kind of everything, but then there was the Older building and I think it's the second oldest building in Minneapolis, minnesota, and so it's just like this beautiful, like wow, this is incredible. It's a lot of money. So, versus the hey, we started a church and hopefully we can make it for 40 years, and then Then, you know, maybe somebody moves into our building and it turns into a you know a big lots, or Maybe another church comes and takes it over. Because, yeah, I mean it's, I think it's, I think it depends on what the the hard posture is, honestly, because you can't, you can't actually capture the beauty of God Fully. But I think everybody knows that you say can't, can't yeah, like it. Like, no matter how beautiful you make something, no matter how exquisite the canvas is, the finished product, no matter how magnificent the Cathedral is, it falls far shy of the glory of God. Like Angel comes down, person faced, dirt, immediately right, and so, while it is beautiful and it kind of catches your breath a little bit, but I think we know that. I think we know that. I think if you were to walk into a church and be like, you shouldn't do this because this is falling short of the true glory of God. It's like, yeah, we know that, but we want to try to capture it because God made us in his image, god made us to create and we want to show beauty in this capacity where maybe you otherwise, you know, wouldn't see it. But I Guess I guess all that to say, come, come 300 years from now, like we live in Greenville, south Carolina, there's a hundred churches in like a hundred square miles. Some are in more traditional church buildings, some are old Greenville money and huge and First Presbyterian church and first Baptist and all the firsts that have been around for 200 years or probably be here 200 years from now. But what are some of the churches that won't make it because of just time and things like that. And did they fall short of something? And do we have a skewed view on this idea? Like all, churches need to be beautiful or our church can be functional, because we don't get to see the yes, and from the fifth century. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:That was a lot of rambling and verbal processing, but I can tell you what will be around is that clock that Jeff Bezos have you heard this? Jeff Bezos built a $30 million clock in like a mountain that's gonna like last longer than humans or something like that, and that just kind of cracks and people like were you know, outraged Cause it's like oh yeah, $30 million is the GDP of some countries. It's like why are you building a clock for 30 million, or I don't even know the amount, it could be more or less, but I'm pretty sure it's there, but still like I don't know. It's like, wouldn't that be and this is not my defense of Jeff Bezos, just for the record but in that kind of cool like if, like all civilization like randomly just was, like, nah, we're like it's over, and then you know, however long, 30,000 years from now or whatever, that somebody's like dad gum it, though, they had a good sense of time.
Speaker 3:There's a clock here Like they had that's all they got.
Speaker 1:Maybe. Like not really, but like you know, that's just it's. I like the idea of like creating a thing to last of, like a church or something like that.
Speaker 2:It's kind of cool. I think we know it inherently. I think we don't know it in practice, and I'm the chief of centers, Like you know, what's a lot better than buying a $40 pair of you know boots from Target or whatever every three years is getting a $400 pair of boots that you can re-soul and then hand to your kids and then they can hand them Like there is something to be said about that, but we don't. I don't think we do that as much anymore as a culture cause. Things change quickly and styles change and it's like, oh, why would I invest in this, knowing that two days from now, the next generation after Z is going to have their style and we got to catch up to that, or whatever it may be. Because, yeah, I think there was a time where things were built to last. Now they're just built to function Like that's and that's not even something made up Vox, you familiar with Vox Like the YouTube channel. They did a video on consumerism and it's like, hey, why aren't things working anymore?
Speaker 1:Now I got you.
Speaker 2:And they're built to not work anymore.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's like refrigerators Designed. Obsolescence.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes designed obsolescence.
Speaker 3:I was thinking about that yesterday. I got my high five. Yeah, you can continue your thought. But like, all right, there's also an issue with the $400 boots. Like, find something that will last. Like there's it's not a plug, but there's like NICs boots and like Wisconsin or something or whatever, and like I love their stuff. And it's like $600, $700 for a pair of shoes. And then you think about yourself and it's like man, well, I like, am I the type of man that's willing to wear one pair or maybe two pair of boots for the rest of my life? Or anyway, just the idea of like designed obsolescence, like if everything or if 99% of the things in our production and manufacturing oriented culture are designed to be obsolete 12 months after you buy them. Because, like, I would argue, most things, it's like what's the warranty? And it's like a year from date, you know.
Speaker 2:When's the last time you ever patched a pair of your jeans?
Speaker 3:Yeah, man, I got a hole in these right now and like I'll just throw them. You know I'm not throwing them away, but I could just take them back to Costco and take any returns.
Speaker 1:Oh, even a holy, you're like holy. Oh, it's like even your holy jeans.
Speaker 3:All these just like caught on the edge of something and have a run in them and it's like oh, that's like. Yeah, costco will take almost anything because these are pretty new and like or like, if you have. Anyway, we're not here to talk about Costco, but the idea. The idea of designed obsolescence also relates to time efficiency, a culture of consumers instead of a culture of in all ours, and that's. I make up a ton of words on here because I don't have but like. When I say in all ours like, I mean like that you would be still enough. You know, I saw like one of the most beautiful sunsets last night, but it was on the way from one place to another, like for our listeners or for us sitting here. Like how many, how many times in the last year have you even made space in your calendar to go with a friend and just like see the sunset, or like even have time in your calendar, if there is one of the most beautiful sunsets you've ever seen, to just like be there?
Speaker 2:It's funny you say that. Let me tell a quick story, cause it ties into it. So this was in college and we went from. A group of guys went from. We went to Athens, georgia, and we were at UGA for a while and then we left that night. So we're driving gosh, we're driving from Athens to Columbia. Like midnight at the earliest we ever made the drive from Athens to Columbia. It's an interesting drive. It is like it like take your backwoods here in the upstate and like the backwoods of those backwoods. And so there's a guy in my car his name is George, I think he's from Wisconsin and we're driving and he's like holy cow. And I was like there's a deer, something about to happen. And he's like do you see those stars? And I was like oh yeah, that's nice. He's like no dude. Like where, where I'm from, and like where we live in Columbia. Like you don't see stars like this. You don't like I have not seen this many stars in my entire life. We pulled over our car, all got out of the car freezing cold and just looked at the stars and it was like there's something to be said about that, like there's something to be said about gosh, what like I don't know what the functions of the stars are, other than just like, hey, check it out, here's beauty. I'm sure there's probably some like we're keeping I mean the sun, obviously, but like you know, just the stars, that would take, you know, millions of light years or whatever the calculation is. You just look at it and you're like this is incredible. And I was like, yeah, like I've seen, thank, I've been blessed to be able to not have enough artificial light to jam up your stargazing. But it was just like, holy cow, do you see this?
Speaker 3:So CS Lewis's letter called learning and wartime. He answers the question essentially like is study or learning a valuable endeavor in times of war? And his answer is yes. But he also basically says we're always like, for Christians, like this is all war, like this is from today to the day that Jesus returns, like this is wartime. So you can go read the letter, it's not too long, it's really good. But you could also, in my opinion, like, take his argument and then reorient it based on like art and wartime, like you know, if we're just here to be efficient, if we're just here to make everything basically as useful as possible. Because earlier you said, one of you said, you know, the right question is what is, you know, most beautiful and then what is most useful. But you, even if you dig into that word, like useful, who dictates what useful is defined by? So like useful, only dictated by my understanding of why things are useful, is different from God viewing things as useful. And so the last thing that I'll, you know, light and toss in is many of you may have heard the parable of the brick layers, so the original, as best we can tell, is from Bruce Barton's book in 1927, what Can a man Believe, and pages two, 52 to 53 is what I have here, but it's based on the rebuilding of St Paul's Cathedral for Sir Christopher Wren, and it was in London. So this is a guy seeing three different brick layers and it's really short. So he says, one morning he passed among the workmen, most of whom did not know him, and of the three men engaged in the same kind of work, he asked the same question what are you doing? From the first, he received the answer I'm cutting this stone. From the second, the answer was I'm earning three shillings and six pence a day. But from the third. But the third man, straightened up, squared his shoulders and holding his mallet in one hand and chiseling the other, proudly replied I'm helping Sir Christopher Wren to build this great cathedral. These are three ways of looking at life. I'm just cutting the stone, I'm only earning a living, I'm doing a small part of a great work. I have not seen the architect and I do not altogether understand the plan, but I believe there is a plan and so I work with good spirit in which there is no fear. So the reason I'm tossing all this in, like the idea of symbology, the idea of beauty, the idea of tradition, past, present, future. They're tied to, in my opinion, like being creatures that are motivated by desire. So if you ask, like, what the value of beauty is, like we all, at the end of the day, the most internal motivation like that becomes for will before will or decision, is what do we want? And we want beautiful things, like beauty motivates us. So I don't have a question now, as much as like, with all of these things just rotating around, like, what do you guys think God, what do you think he's singing or speaking of regeneration?
Speaker 1:that has like been so embroiled and just efficiency and I'll tell you the first, not with that question, but the first thing I thought when you were saying like all the stuff you just said was like suicide rates, which is not a good place to start. But like suicide rates, to me there's no like it makes sense for them to go up. The more like utility, the more that we value utility more than beauty, cause like what's worth like, just to be like useful, just to be like the means to an end of like doing that of like, the means to the end of utility to be used to build a society that's just in it, to make more and more and more money and more stuff, and stuff like that. That's not necessarily beautiful, but there's more useful or to be because you still are useful, you're still building things. But instead to build beautiful things, to build like stuff that lasts, so that you can look at culture and be like man. I was a part of that and obviously that's a secular worldview of like, looking at culture and being like that's beautiful. We've built something beautiful here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, cause I mean, if you're, if you're, if the question. I'm not an expert in this topic, so forgive me if this is off-putting or wrong, but if one of the questions is that somebody asks is is anybody gonna care if I'm around anymore? And that question is rooted in somebody's utility, how useful am I If you? I mean if you don't meet the, if you don't meet the, I guess the definition of what useful is and you're like no, I guess I'm not useful, then I guess nobody wants me around anymore, which anybody who has ever loved somebody is like that's not how it works, but it can certainly seem that way. Versus, yeah, the beauty of hate. Just you being here is beautiful in and of itself and what you have to offer is is great. I think there is a. The tension that I feel when, when these types of conversations happen and it's probably a me issue rather than a conversation issue is, I do feel the attention because I am prone to like hey, let's just like grind through and get it done. That's my, that's my natural inclination. My natural inclination is not to stop my car on the backwoods in Athens, georgia, and like look at the stars. It's like hey, I'm trying not to go to bed before after 4 am, so, like, let's hit the road. Same applies for work, of job needs to get done. There's a deadline, like it needs to get done, so let's do it and we can stop and smell the roses after. That's my natural inclination, which is something I know I need to work on and surrender and sacrifice. But because it's my natural inclination, there is a, there is a tension that comes up between, okay, there's beauty for beauty's sake, Thank you. Inequality. Sexy under the sun for questioning. Alright, there is a sending out of the 72, right, and there is a go and cultivate the field and plow the land and God will water. But like, we have a responsibility. But I think maybe what God has been teaching me in these types of conversations that have been more frequently in the past couple of months then not is maybe the plowing the field and maybe the tilling of the soul waiting for God to provide the rain. Maybe that is. I think it is, I believe it is and I tell artists that it is.
Speaker 3:I think, maybe I believe it yeah.
Speaker 2:I've told people this explicitly, but I think, just overall maybe that is a yeah, the soil that you need to till is creating a beautiful work of art, because social media is a funny thing. Social media is a funny thing and one thing I've learned. If my I always look at Instagram comments, for better or for worse I think I might have mentioned this on the last off the I just view the comments immediately and there are so many things where it's like, hey, I'll give you an example Jonathan Remy I think it's the last time the guy who plays Jesus on the chosen Gotcha. So there's a writer strike going on in Hollywood that's causing a hold up on a lot of TV TV productions and movie productions. So he posted on Instagram with like three or four of the people in the chosen were out at the writer strike and we're here to get better compensation, better pay for what we're doing. Sweet, it's like, oh man, this is gonna be good Jesus at a writer strike, picket thing, open up the comments and somebody said shouldn't you be standing with Israel instead? It's like those things are mutually exclusive, like you can be at a writer strike and take sides with Israel. I mean, I'm not trying to go into that topic, but it was like those that comp. Those comments are so mutually exclusive, like they don't have nothing to do with one another. It would be like yeah, I'm drinking a Coke. Shouldn't you be eating green beans instead? It's like what you know? Like it doesn't. That's two different things.
Speaker 1:So how many likes on that comment?
Speaker 2:Oh gosh, I don't even know it wasn't like a top comment. Oh, it was a top comment, oh, man yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Well, that's kind of related to the learning and wartime. It's the idea of individual convictional exclusivity. Yeah, oh, is that makes sense? Oh, yeah, you're reading these books.
Speaker 2:Shouldn't you be out fighting? And it's like you know that thing might have some connection to it. But I mean just two musically exclusive things. So I think something that often happens is somebody is getting bastardized in this conversation If it's the person who's sitting and beholding the beauty. You look at the I'll just use like the heroic masculine figures of this day and age. You look at the David Goggins and the Nick Bears and Andrew Huberman and you look at that side of it's just like, hey, how can we be efficient? How can we do hard things? Cause it's going to make you better? If you're like, well, let's just rest in the beauty, those people get bastardized. If you're like, hey, get out, grind it, get it, do hard things, it's going to make you better, then you look at the beauty side and you're like, hey, can you guys like, do something, cause all you're doing is just sitting around and writing poetry and whatever. Is there not a yes, and Can you? Because both things are true. Doing hard things, meeting resistance, whether voluntary or involuntary, is going to make you better. And that's not just like a cultural thing, that's a biblical thing, like suffering. Suffering will make you more like Christ and you will look and learn more about Christ in suffering and in doing hard things or in walking through hard things. Then if you just had a life of just, everything is easy and there's no hardship On the flip side, if all you did was just grind it out and you never stopped and smelled the flowers, you never stopped and said Ham's going to make poetry for poetry's sake, gosh, you're missing out on a whole world of beauty. Is there not a yes? And to the, you don't have to. I mean, the whole point of this podcast, in a way, is like is there a world where you don't have to take a side or you can say, hey, beauty for your beauty's sake is good, functionality for functionality's sake is good. Let's not overload one or the other, because there is work to do and there is a kingdom to be a part of. But to Jared's point about the Good Samaritan, I'm like, hey, we could be building the kingdom. Why are we picking up this guy on the road? Plot twist picking up the guy on the road was building the kingdom. So there's this intersection of yeah, you gotta do some things, you got. I mean picking up this guy taking the end, he's got. I mean he's been beat up and all this stuff, like you're doing some work that is building the kingdom.
Speaker 3:Well, because, logically, for the humans, like say that that was a king that was walking by and this is just one man's life, but this king has the right or the power to affect millions of lives. And so, like you can understand, like rationally or logically, if we as human beings function in that way, it's like, well, this is just one man's life and I'm on the way to, I could affect the quote kingdom in millions of man's lives Like one. The arrogance that, like we dictate that response is a thing to have a conversation about later, but like the way that ties in to the Mary Magdalene story if that is Mary Magdalene, it's like one of the things that Jesus said is her name will be remembered for as long as this story is told. And like that's now, like her piece of wiping his feet with her tears mixed with incense. Quote, wasting, unquote. A year's wages, like that was worthy now, in Jesus's opinion, of the story of preparation of his burial. And that story, in parable terms, has affected everyone that's heard about Jesus's story, as well as the Samaritan. So now it's like the yeah, and you know what else Jesus says?
Speaker 2:He says leave her alone. He says leave her alone. She's doing what she can. So, like to me, she's doing what she can. Man, if you've got $30 million to build a clock that's gonna outlast generations, for beauty's sake, do it. Let me do what you can if that's what you feel called to do. Maybe doing what you can is hey, I feel called to plan a church and we're going here and I don't have the money to make a cathedral, and so me doing what I can is gonna be moving into the CVS that just moved out and there's gonna be nothing really aesthetic about this, or it's gonna be, you know, like, go to Honduras and be like hey, man, your church needs to be.
Speaker 1:like, hey, leave her alone, Leave her alone.
Speaker 2:She's doing what she can.
Speaker 3:That's a really good point.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so like yeah, and I gotta give credit, if this ever gets listened that was Chelsea, who's the fine arts director of First Prez, who dropped that line of just like hey, here's a key thing that Jesus said leave her alone, she's doing what she can. So doing what you can is building a clock, if it's making poetry that nobody ever sees, or if it's making poetry that a lot of people see, if it's writing a song that never gets heard, if it's writing a song that becomes the next grave in the gardens and now it is used by churches and is an encouragement to like thousands upon thousands of people. You do what you can and that you know, because, like there's this beauty. It's like, well, what if I don't? What's not an artist? What if I'm an accountant? What if I'm a landlord? It's like, well, just do what you can, do what you can to be to bring beauty in that world, but also do a good job of what you're doing and that might look more functional than beautiful at times I don't know much about. Like people who like grind out songs all the time. You know where there's like like, oh man, this one song, you've released 12 songs and this one is my favorite. He's like, well, I've written like 150. These are the, just the ones that made it. Like there comes a time where that, like I'm doing this for the beauty, like there comes a time where that stops If I, you know, like I've written 150 songs. Not all of them are beautiful, not all of them come from this like look at the stars and it's just like I'm doing the best I can. I feel called to be a songwriter, so I'm gonna grind out some songs. Maybe they'll encourage people, maybe they'll end up in the trash can, but that's what I'm doing, doing the best I can, and that's the heart. And you know he wasn't saying, you know Jesus wasn't saying yeah, you're right, you know, but let's just let her have this one because she's doing what she can. But you're right, 300 Nari, dude, that would have, I could have fed a lot of people. No, it's like back off, like she is being extremely generous, she is offering her first fruits this I mean because it was again credit to Mariah and alabaster and Kofa bringing this. But like, if you read into it that, like the incense, like it was also a dowry gift, so she's not only offering up something that's really expensive. This is like wedding, like gifts on the line, like what if she? Just the one thing that would have made her attractive as a bride she just poured out on Jesus. Which, again, the beauty and that you know like, and so it's gorgeous. So there is beauty in it, and you know but that there's also beauty in the function, right, because the brick layer, yeah, it's beauty. There's a whole lot of functionality that had to take place and a whole lot of being. I have no idea, no idea how the pyramids got here. I'd imagine that, however they did get here, they're pretty dang efficient of figuring out how to make that work. And now we look back and say, wow, that's beautiful. But in the grind of that, in the midst of that, you know again, was it built by aliens? Was it built off the backs of slaves? And they should be condemned, like, let's not dive into that. But there was functionality in that beauty. And I think that's, I think that's the overlap of the symbology. Again, christmas tree no functionality, but most symbols.
Speaker 3:But, yeah, that would be. The idea, though, is that I mean just to settle on. What we're saying is that beauty does have a functionality and like symbols that, like my children, see a functionality in that Christmas tree, oh yeah. Or I mean for the countertops being clean or for a house being I mean, Solomon's temple and his house were beautiful and like God's tabernacle was ornate. And I don't even love that story of like he picks a dude that he's just like designed for this, like there was one dude, like one tradesman, like there's all these, like people of Israel, and then we could look up his name, but then God's like and get Tom, he's got, like he can make it all. It's just like one general contractor out of all of that.
Speaker 1:So you're a free Mason now. That's what? Their whole foot. I'm not getting out of this, all right, yeah, I'm gonna get a free Mason on. By the way, I don't care, I'm gonna do it. I know a few, so you know some free. Yeah, my grandpa, my great grandpa and I come from a line. It's fun. All right, guys, sounds like you something like you are the free. Mason yeah, yeah, it's correct.
Speaker 3:If we're gonna have one, would I tell you if I was my. I just meant to. So this conversation is weird and, like some people may also, I think here's an interesting thought about, like listening to podcasts or learning. A question we often ask is, like what is the point For this conversation? I was like, well, what's my takeaway? What's the point? And even that can have arrogance of like, how does this apply to your life? Oh God, help us. Like, what is my point? What's my three points? Like, sometimes to me that feels like you plant a seed in the ground and it's like what's my fruit? Like one, you may not even know what the seeds are. Yeah, two, like you're gonna need to wait. Like some part of pondering, like the idea to just like sit and look at the stars and be in awe of beauty. Like it does things to you 30 years from now. Yeah, like it does things to you Because that's what I wrote earlier as well. The reference point earlier was GK Chesterton's Everlasting man, which is a deep, a deep cut, and you can go read that if you want your brain to hurt. But then also, like I wrote a note on what Logan was saying, which is beauty the most lasting as well, because, like, the things we put the most time into are often the most beautiful, like in terms of artistic integrity or architecture. Like if you ever think about the way that the West was colonized, like the reason America blew onto the scene is because we did stick built housing and then we literally just like, flooded the American planes with wooden stick built homes as quickly as humanly possible. There was a time that you could order a home in Sears and like the boxes.
Speaker 2:Would it's coming back Home. Depot baby yeah, 41K.
Speaker 3:And now we're like printing homes with concrete printers. But like part of the reason that there are cultures that you can even remember, like you're talking about, is the fact that they took an inordinate amount of time to build the Sistine Chapel, to paint, to carve. So I think sometimes there's not a point, is what I would say to learning, as much as like you're just gathering information to be an awe of, and then God may reveal a point based on a million things you didn't know had a reference point previously. So a lot of times revelation isn't just like and like, oh, this revelation happened. It's like, oh, I did see him walk on water and then he did, and then I do remember he hasn't been quoted yeah, remember all the fish.
Speaker 2:I caught.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, he's been quoting the Old Testament a lot. Wait a minute.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And then it's like son of God.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And so what's interesting to me about this, if I will say I am also, in this moment, gathering a point. So sometimes there's a point. So a lot of times the way we think about effort is the desired outcome is the greatest return, like that's how we think about investment in terms of effort, in terms of work, in terms of efficiency. But what if the greatest return that's most valuable to God was glory?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Which is like the purpose of reality, if you wanna go into like the Westminster's confession that he'd be glorified and we'd be-.
Speaker 2:Chief in demand.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so yet we live in a world that is on a constant cycle of joy, mourning, mystery or joy suffering, mystery. Previously, my wife and I were sitting with a counselor and we were talking about the way that at any point in time you're somewhere on that scale Joy suffering, mystery, mourning. But like going through the mystery, in my opinion, is where you discover glory. So, like mystery to us is glory to God. These are not I'm not a professional these are not like deep theological points that I will back up, it's just like my pondering, but a lot of like what makes you do the follow through is that internal motivation of like is this worthwhile? And I love what you said about like the suicidal, or it was one of you of like, oh, am I useful? What a horrendous question. Yeah, as though my love for the two of you has anything to do with your usefulness to me. What a horrific way to look at like the value of relationship with another person. And if you're not, then you don't have value to me. You are useful in the fact that you bring me joy and I wanna participate in relationship with you. And if you were not here, if Grant were not here, then Logan wouldn't act in the way that Logan does is when Jared and Grant are here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, also a clutch CS Lewis thing with his, with the Inklings, when his buddy died. He's like, oh, there's a part of Charles I'll never get to see again, because this guy passed away and he was the only one who could bring it out. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:And so like we talk about that a lot in the realm of suicide, or like my wife's brother that died, and like that is a there's a truism, there's a mourning, and that that is forever gone, or the inside jokes that person would make, or the way that they would lie to room, like, yet the way that we remember them is also in the traditions of their words and the traditions of their person and personality. So here's my like, the last plug of a thing that's interesting and the idea of effort, and like what motivates effort, and you guys can give me your thoughts. There's a movie on this, but if you've heard of the of Shackleton's endurance, like Shackleton's endurance expedition, it was an expedition into the Antarctic and it like it was one of the most harrowing expeditions has ever existed. And everyone returned, yet they were shipwrecked in the Antarctic? Yeah, yeah, okay, so there's a book, there's a movie.
Speaker 1:Are you talking about the ad? Yeah, yeah, that's a sick guy.
Speaker 3:So that's dirty. If the idea, if the idea is utmost quote, rightly oriented utmost effort, okay, so that we get the utmost return, and then God's utmost return is his greatest glory, for our greatest enjoyment of him. So those things are all married right. And you know, the guy that's spending that quote inordinate amount of hours on the cathedral, he's putting his whole heart into what he's doing, versus the one that's just getting it done for a six pence. So if the idea of utmost effort is dictated by beauty or honor or glory, we just don't know how we work. We don't know how our hearts work, we don't know how our brains work, like the way that we think about doing hard things. Cause, like spending time building a cathedral day in, day out, that's a hard thing. Like being steadfast, that's a hard thing. We think it works on simple measures, simple carrot and stick, and like we just don't know what we're made for. So here's Shackleton's ad. It's just an ad in the paper.
Speaker 2:This is the ad in the paper to invite people on to his expedition. Yes, sir, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so he has an expedition that's been given to him. It was like a scientific expedition or an expedition of discovery. So here's his ad Men wanted for hazardous journey, small wages, bitter, cold, long months of complete darkness, constant danger, comma, safe return, doubtful honor and recognition in case of success. He had more at. He had more appeals of people to be on that expedition than they could deal with and I believe there were there's at least one, maybe two stowaways on that boat. Yeah, so when we think about calling people, oh man, two great expenditures of sacrifice and energy for good work, like the greatest call is the cross, like we see a man that shows up essentially like men wanted for crucifixion, you see in Paul's words, like beat down but not destroyed.
Speaker 1:You know, crushed. We have got to bring this up when we interview the Navy SEAL Right.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a good line.
Speaker 2:Honor and glory maybe, but definitely will be on the other side of eternity, but here, who knows? Yeah, yeah, I like that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I, like I love Paul's scripture of so we are, when he goes into the, beat down but not destroyed, crushed but not, you know, hopeless Like I need to learn my Bible better but he kind of ends in the. So we are wasting away daily, our flesh is being destroyed, daily, we receive the death of Christ in our bodies and we are dying that the life of Christ may be poured out to you. And I think, when we think about right all the way back to symbology and helpful or not helpful, the way this ties into me is where Paul says like turn your attention toward what I've made you like, cultivated your heart to love and be passionate about. And then like, cast off every other weight which is different for each of us. Like symbols, helpful culturally, not like every other weight is different, it's different for cultures, it's different for or.
Speaker 1:I have a deep theological point that needs to be discussed. All right, so.
Speaker 3:I'll finish this. The thought then Incredibly deep. All right, so with that idea, the last piece of that is am I useful? A better way to ask that is like am I helpful and you have a ministry, if you're made in the image of God? That means that God reflects himself in the image, like think, of a mirror, like God has a reflection of his face in some way in Logan that no one has ever seen or will ever see again outside of the way that Logan lives his life and then allows that reflection of God to be expressed. So are you helpful? Well, you are most helpful when you know who you are in the one that's called you, and know that you don't need to do or be or make anything happen to be helpful, like you are beloved.
Speaker 2:And if you know that, then you are In fact yeah, I have something I wanna say to that, but I wanna hear Green's first.
Speaker 1:You go ahead. Mine's completely garbage gut. So the super deep was super sarcasm.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's incredible sarcasm.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's a tough one, and maybe helpful is not the right word.
Speaker 2:No, I know what you're saying. I know what you're saying, but for me it's tough because I feel like follow your passion is like a white collar luxury. It's a luxury If you were to go to a third world country and say hey, why are you working in the fields? Follow your passion, you're like, because I wanna live.
Speaker 1:I've got a family.
Speaker 2:And so I do think I do think. So that begs two questions. One do we just say, hey, go follow your passion and shuck everything? And some people did and some people have. There are some artists who are like, hey, I'm gonna live in a cardboard box before I give up this passion of creating. That's awesome. And some people on the flip side have squandered or squashed their creativity in the name of I need to have my median income here to be successful and to live. So, which is right. That's just a question that you want. Or the second question is is there a way that you can follow your passion and that passion not be tied into what it is you're doing? Because I love what I do right now. I love what I do right now for work. If there was ever something that lined up to gosh, this is what I feel like I am made to do. This is pretty dang close, which is awesome. It's a blessing that not many people will get to experience. And the jobs I've had previously, the jobs I might have to come, et cetera Dude, they didn't follow my passion. It was like I need to. I know I need to make some money so I can provide for my family and I need to. And again, even then it was a luxury because it was like, oh, I got some choice here. But, like again, it's like hey, why are you out in the fields grinding away, picking whatever it may be, or tilling whatever it is, or cultivating whatever it is? And it's like I need to live. So is there a way for us, the Christian, to follow our passion and the passion not be tied into what we do? And my argument is yes. My argument is go to Colossians, read it and you'll say that your to work is unto the Lord. Well, if your passion is Christ, not passion is artist, or passion is landlord, or passion is ultramarathon runner or whatever it is, whatever you see being thrown out there, follow your heart. You gotta do this. Everything from YouTube content creator to musician to I mean you see it everywhere I quit my nine to five to follow my passion and it's like you're amazing. There's a guy on Instagram right now who's like the dad life or husband life, and his whole platform is Norma, five and nine to five and it's all like dude, it's awesome. And it's these videos. It's videos like in the style of that typical, like Instagram, short, like this guy grinding it out, running the 200 mile thing. And it's like him in the morning and it's him sliding his Lenovo laptop into his backpack and zipping it up and him taking the elevator and him in his cubicle like with his laptop on top of a binder that says like retirement and he goes. And then it's like a video of him like playing with his dog, making dinner in his like super normal kitchen, making super normal food, and then he like cuts on Netflix and then like turns it off. And it's a video of his like 60 second like Norma, five and nine to five, and the comments on that are insane. It's like dude, I can't believe this. I'd rather jump out of a window than live your life like et cetera, et cetera and so, but it's like gosh, that's not. You can't do that for everybody. I feel like we're very privileged and I use that word in the best way possible to be like there's a world in which we can quit our job, all our passion, and not like die. And so if we're working into the Lord, then it doesn't matter. You know, I'll use my personal example. It doesn't matter if I'm an account representative at a marketing agency. It doesn't matter if I'm working and housing at a university or whether I'm overseeing programs and events for a non-profit organization. It doesn't matter if you're schlepping in the fields. It doesn't matter if you are big pimping on Wall Street and you're driving the Maserati's and the high end. You know super cars. There is a way for the Christian. It's like the finance guy hey, you can be humble and rich and you can be arrogant and poor. It's not the money, there's an underlying thing I'm saying. It's not the job, it's the underlying thing. You can be creative. If you're like man, I feel the most passion to create. Creativity can look beyond and beauty can be beyond the typical metrics of beauty. Sometimes the most beautiful thing we're like that is beautiful. Beautiful Was a solution to a problem that I was like I can't figure this out and it's like pin on paper, like numbers and Excel type deal. It's like that's beautiful, that's the most beautiful. It's somebody who knows how to like do taxes.
Speaker 3:That's a beautiful thing.
Speaker 2:Right, like that's a beautiful thing. I don't know how to do my taxes that well Shout out to TurboTax and my dad, you know, and so it's like. So I think there is. There has to be a passion underneath that and for the Christian it is Christ and it's like I can be content and plenty. I can be content and need or whatever. You know that was the Logan Rice version of whatever that scripture is. Yeah, pretty close. But if that's true, then it can't just be the job or the thing that drives the beauty. There can be beauty in everything, and so that I think that's the one pushback I have on the culture of the I mean same thing. I have pushed back on the Ultra Runner that gives up cockroach spraying Like dude, you know what's a beautiful thing and we talked about this in the last one, so maybe we just picking up where we left off in a way. But it's like you know what's a beautiful thing? Somebody spraying cockroaches in my house. From those cockroaches. Like that's a beautiful thing. You know what's a beautiful thing? Walking into a cathedral and seeing both of those things can be beautiful. Yeah, but we bastardized the cockroach sprayer because that's just function. You're just a cog and a wheel, you're just a sprayer of insects. It's like, if you wanna look at it that way. But what if there's an underlying passion of the where? What if there were cockroach sprayers that said I'm just making my pants, I'm getting my, I'm getting my, you know $10 an hour or whatever?
Speaker 3:it may be.
Speaker 2:Or you got the I'm just spraying bugs, but then you got one guy that's saying I'm providing peace of mind to this homeowner, to this business owner. You apply that to everything and you apply with I'm keeping, you know the same thing you mentioned about a clean house and that being, you know, a sign of beauty and everything. God, like you know what jams up your clean house. Doesn't matter how clean your countertop Sorry, you see a cockroach run across that thing. You get the ick, you know, and so it's like man, it's a beautiful thing for somebody to come and say this is what I'm doing and you, and with that you know, you can, you can definitely overwork yourself. You can definitely, you know, grind it out 90 hours a week and be burnt out. But maybe there is a cockroach sprayer that's like it'll work 67 hours a week and I'm doing that because I get to keep people's homes rid of cockroaches. And some people might look and say, man, you're overworked. I can't believe you're doing this. I'd rather, you know, live in a box and be a cockroach sprayer. Sweet, that's fine, do it, do your thing, do your best, leave me alone. I'm a cockroach sprayer, I'm doing my best, leave me alone. Yeah, you go, do your thing. But I do think it's a shame that in the culture of functionality and in the culture of how can we push back against that. I feel like the person that gets lost is the person who's not following their passion and it's like. But as Christians, we should all be following our passion, and our passion to your point. Jared is chiefly Christ, and if that's our chief passion, everything falls below.
Speaker 1:Right yeah. And who makes these metrics?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Who are these pagan cultures that say this is real life?
Speaker 1:Yeah, what is the? What is the metric? Like this is something that I talk about often. Yeah, it's like okay, without and this is not like an argument for religion or anything but it's just like without having like a common thing. Like it can be a constitution, it could be a thing, like it could be whatever, but without having like a common thing that everybody points towards and they're like that is good. Maybe I don't know everything about it, maybe that's that, but like that is good and that's what I should aspire to be. Yeah, and to us, that would be Christ, right. Yeah, like, and that's our metric system, if you will like how passionate you are about Christ, or something like that. And it's like who makes? Like the guy that's judging the other guy for the cockroach sprayer, like that's an artist. Like, what metrics is he following? Like, where did he get those? He's following?
Speaker 2:the dollar chiefly. Yeah, it's the dollar, followed by individual happiness. Those two, if you look, if you look at everything, it's the dollar and individual happiness. And I feel like we're at a point in time where actually the individual happiness is trumping the dollar, which is kind of nice, except you're just robbing Peter to pay Paul, Because it's like your individual happiness. You don't have to be happy into your job Like some people. Some people don't go to work and they're happy, they're joyful, but it's not like, oh my gosh, I woke up this morning, I'm stoked, I am elated to be. You know, whatever this thing is, that joy has to happen underneath the surface. That has for the brick layer, you know like that joy happens because he sees the bigger picture, versus I'm just here grinding, not getting my money.
Speaker 3:As maybe one like final encouragement on this train of thought. And I still wanna know what Grant's sarcastic, deep theological point is.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, we gotta get on that.
Speaker 3:One final like piece of this. As a man, that is a lot more of a why to use Simon Sinek's words like the why person than a what person Like. There are people in the world that, like my wife is one like she's here to win and why Like doesn't really matter, it's like whatever the test is, whatever the thing that's slid across the table, like she is here to win that day. So like if you have as an example a professor that you think is bonkers, like full of crap, and like you think that his process is useless, or like this isn't even you know this entire semester, isn't even like teaching me anything because you're not who you should be, and like I hate the way that you, you know, design this system and all these things. Like that would be like my internal process mentally, versus like my wife just learns what that professor loves and what he hates and then learns what she needs to do in order to win and then just does that.
Speaker 2:And it moves on with her life. Shout out to that Enneagram coach you had on. That's called Enneagram Trace. My friends, that's Enneagram Three.
Speaker 3:And for her it's just like I don't care, I will destroy anything in my path.
Speaker 1:And that is Did you just type cast a?
Speaker 2:person. I am in Enneagram Three.
Speaker 1:So what Jared is saying so that makes it okay, I am a white person that do love a good achievement.
Speaker 3:So the why and the what is interesting in that and this is an aside an aside but like I do think that God places in the hearts of white people, like I think that's a lot of the people that he kind of puts in that camp of like vision holders or those that like ponder and look ahead and like try to think about why. So why did I say that? I said that because Ask him why he said I'm a why guy.
Speaker 1:Wait, why did I say that?
Speaker 3:I'm asking that for the guests and to bring us and me back on this train of thought. The why behind me saying that is you can. The converse to that are people that don't do don't put their whole heart into something if they don't understand or do not agree with the why. So there's an issue in the workplace when often we work for organizations or companies that we like don't believe in, but then God says, as Logan backs up, you're not serving them.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 3:Who are you Like? Christ literally comes and says like who are you working for? And we're like, well, they did this and this and this and I'm trying to uphold the values they have. And I'm trying. He's like who are you working to? I'm like, well, you Lord.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, doesn't matter if it's a Christian organization, doesn't matter if it's a-.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So he says so, work as unto me. And then we say, but they spit on me and they disregard good morals and they are not faithful. And he's like, yeah, that's like a human thing, like that's not new, that's like since the beginning of time. So I say all that to say like I'm a lot more of a wild guy. And when you say like not everybody has to follow their passion, and you just put the work in like that is true. One of the things that's helped me, though, is understanding cause both of you mentioned in some way like burnout or just grinding Most companies living at the pace that we're living, they're always chasing, staying ahead of inflation, and so we live in a culture that's constantly got to make more next year than they made last year. So, just as a reference point, whether it's nonprofit or for-profit, like, as you chase inflation in that way, or as you have companies that don't slow down their pace or have any Sabbath, you always have to stay ahead of the damn nation that's behind you the crumbling and for clarity, I'm not saying don't follow your passion. No, I know.
Speaker 2:I'm saying make your passion Christ, and then the rest is not irrelevant, but it becomes second place.
Speaker 1:I was gonna back you on that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, okay, yeah. So I guess I was saying like yeah, find your passion in Christ, not first what you're doing.
Speaker 1:And that's 100% better.
Speaker 3:So, yes, I'm not un-backing you, I agree. But as an encouragement to men and women who say I don't wanna be burnt out and so I'll find work that doesn't burn me out, you're not gonna find that in a culture that's chasing a dollar to stay ahead of inflation, everything will burn you out, like if you're only gonna put your whole heart into something that's going to be stable and consistent and has good moral and follow through. That's gonna be a real hard thing to find. But what's beautiful about what Logan said is if you first make your motivation Christ and glorifying them, then you can. Or glorifying him then, whether it's a third world country, when you're sweeping a dirt floor of a cathedral, of a heavenly cathedral, or you're working on a line or you are cleaning out trash cans or you're a bricklayer, like your God is unpacking your passion in him as you labor. And the last part of that is just the practical sense. The less that we are indebted financially, physically and our schedules are indebted, the more stable, like physically, that we are not carrying a lot of debt in many different ways, the less beholden we are to chasing the dollar as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:All right.
Speaker 2:Grant theological point.
Speaker 1:Oh well, callie, I hate to leave this, but.
Speaker 2:Oh, you can say on it, I don't want to.
Speaker 1:I want to hit one thing and then I'm going to say something stupid.
Speaker 3:Okay, so I have one final thing too at the end, so we can all Okay, well, final thoughts.
Speaker 1:Yeah, dude, you like to have your hands? Yeah, I'm going to do mine.
Speaker 2:I'm done, I promise. I'm pushing the mic away.
Speaker 1:I'm not saying anything you do yours, then I'm going to ask a silly question for all three of us that I think that some listeners would enjoy. At least my wife would laugh. All right. So, john Mark Comer, right, please be on this podcast, by the way, john Mark Comer. Oh man like please you won't listen to this, but if you do, this is just a whisper in your ear. Somebody I know will, somebody I know you know will listen to it though I know it All right, so let's keep going. So I'm going to get to the mic. So John Mark Comer, his thing that I thought was super interesting, that I don't know if I agree with. I don't know if I disagree with it, it's just kind of there and I really enjoyed reading it. But you said the things like built to last, right, so there was definitely in there. Like I'm going to buy like one pair of like the best pants or like one pair of the best shoes and I'm going to have, you know, three black t-shirts, whatever it is Iconic, yeah, stuff like that, which I totally am on that team man, like dude, I would wear black pocket t-shirts every day. I'm wearing one right now. It's just that's how I go. But there is something to be said about like buying, you know, quality things just for, like just a couple of things that are high quality rather than a bunch of junk, right, but on the like, in the alternative, or on the alternative, it's like you have to have money Just to buy expensive but like obviously you could like keep, but like some people can only buy stuff for like frigging, frigging goodwill and that's it. So it's like, yes, aspire to do that. And like a company that's like good. You know that actually like does good things. That was one thing I wanted to tell Jared is like the idea of like you know working something out, you know working someplace that sucks, but doing it for the Lord. It's like, are you like a, like a house sucky? You know, like somebody that's actually doing slave labor, but like you know, and you're like working for that company, like how sucky do you go? That's something that I thought would be interesting. But aside from that, Moral conviction included, yeah, and doing it for the Lord means also working for a company that probably doesn't get involved in slave labor, that's all I'm gonna say yeah, but yeah, that's pretty easy.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no talk needed. Yeah, it's easy, but it's just like.
Speaker 1:I wanted to make sure that it's not like, oh, work for a sucky company, yeah, and then rock and roll with that. But there's something really cool there of like buying from a company like Alibaster yeah, if we're gonna go in this again, that has like good values. Spontaneous, yeah, that has good values, good stuff like that. I love that and. But some people just don't like, just don't have money.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. I mean, if somebody from 1870, fresh off the civil war, and they time traveled to 2023, like, what would they say? Follow your passion. You know he's like are you kidding me? Like I just watched.
Speaker 1:Say why are there flying machines?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I just watched my cousin shoot my cousin in a civil war. So I do think there's it ebbs and flows.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's in no way bashing, that, I've just I don't know, it's just it sounds, it's a privilege.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a privilege, and if you have that privilege, you should do it the right way.
Speaker 1:Do it, yeah. Do it the best you can.
Speaker 2:Like, by all means, don't put your family on the line to have a t-shirt that was you know. Or like, have that one pair of jeans is going to last you forever. Because, like, okay, you hand that and maybe there's an ROI on that. Where it's like you know, you make the money over the course of time I don't know of like, oh, if I pay 100 now that I won't pay 10, 12 times, so I'm saving $20 maybe, but you can still just get like pain on it, like something that's just you're having for 20 years.
Speaker 1:something's going to happen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the best way possible. Privilege is the right word. Some people are privileged to write books that say, hey, here's what you should do, and that's awesome, and you should do that Absolutely. If somebody were to read the Ruthless Elimination of Hurry in, you know, the jungle of Africa, it just doesn't apply. And that doesn't mean that one is right and one is wrong. It just means it doesn't apply. So it's not a universal broad brush stroke.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I dig it. All. Right, jared, do your last thing, and I'm going to end it with a fun.
Speaker 3:All right, my last thing is four part.
Speaker 1:Oh, dad got it so.
Speaker 2:All right, John Piper.
Speaker 3:It's really it's fairly short, so I've been ordering them. There's nine ways.
Speaker 2:I'm going to say this Nine ways.
Speaker 3:Just hold down with me, hold on with me. You have nine ways, so you got tulips over there. So I've got, I'll, I'll, I'll close it with. I'll close it with scripture and open it with. I really love what Logan said and it it kind of opened this idea to me, which is burnout versus burning up. So there's burnout and then there's finding the end of yourself. The way the culture deals with burnout is you find another way to medicate.
Speaker 1:Yep, have a Budweiser. It's all over everything.
Speaker 3:Or you I don't mean, I'm not, I don't mean this sarcastic way or you kill yourself, either slowly or yeah, Immediately, like you either either way. And so what happens in that is, whatever your dictated purpose, that you chose it, it left you you become adrift, and so that's where burnout to, and and you can do that a certain amount of times you can find a purpose and say this is it, and then burnout, then another, this is it, and then burnout until you become depressed, as as a grave is depressed into the ground, and then you are buried in that hole that you've dug. Yet the believer has the same world, with the same pain and the same suffering, and the same quote burnout, yep, and a God that says take on more responsibility for a higher purpose and be sacrificed for it.
Speaker 2:Just a quick interruption here. The God will never give you more than you can handle. Thing that's out of context, so just Nonsense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's nonsense, it's not actually. Right, I'm okay, I was speaking out of yeah, that's, that's so like.
Speaker 2:God will 100% give you more to handle to your point.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I just want to say so how do you grow?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he will never give you more than he can resurrect.
Speaker 2:Yes, thank you. He's preaching now.
Speaker 3:Come on Reverend. So the end of yourself, as it were, is the place, in my opinion, where your flesh burns up. And when your flesh burns up, you find some things as the as the burnout goes higher and higher. In this picture, this imagery becomes a drift on the top of the sea, the one that goes deeper and deeper, in my opinion, as their flesh burns up and their oxygen goes, they find his calling to deeper and deeper, yep. And then they find that they're anchored, they're, they're becoming more anchored, though they are more dead, less oxygen, more, and at some point you're, you are more of you than you were, though there is less of you.
Speaker 2:Because you're more of Christ.
Speaker 3:Yes, as the marble, true humanity. As the marble, true humanity, as the marble is knocked away, as the art is found, it, the beauty is found in the removal of the excess. So, with that, give away your best recipes. Never. You'll never paint your best work, you'll never write your best poem, you'll never give away his best. He's given it to you as you courageously, fearlessly, express the next thought, as you have an idea, as you have the next thing to write beautifully. You're not. You're not being the best. You are displaying the degree of bestness that is coming through you in that moment. And so that's why, like the greatest artists, they, they, they beautify through inspiration, not as a job, yep. So true inspiration is not a job. True Christianity is not a job. It's, it's inspiration. We're part of passion, painting and a passion and inspiration because we're creatures of desire. We taste and see that he is good. That is a. That is a is an objective view of the senses being used to participate in partaking of Christ. So my favorite poem is actually the last thing I'll say, because this fits better here Proverbs 28,. One Proverbs 28 is all over this, by the way, like if you just want to go in and like. I mean it literally has like land rulers, it has like anxiety. It's got. It's got the one about keeping law and understanding better as a poor man who walks in integrity than a rich man who is crooked in his ways. So if you want to just like have that thing earlier about poor and rich and blah, blah, blah, so, but Proverbs one says and there's a there a lot of the Old Testament about Israel kind of relates this in some way. It's the idea of them fleeing when no one's chasing them. So the argument could be made to the culture that's constantly trying to stay ahead of inflation Like what are you running from? Like why? Like what is there to get done? There's been so much of that conversation. So Proverbs 28 one says the wicked flee when no one pursues, but the righteous are bold as a lion. You could just dig into this entire conversation and that this is the last thing I'll end with and it's it's my, one of my favorite poems, and even that word, even that sentence I just said, like the idea of one of my favorite, or this is the degree to which I understand what I believe right now, or this is the beauty to which I can paint right now, like it's that idea of just continually, like I'm not done, you're not done. We're here to partake of and participate in more. So the opposite of what the world says, though, is only do what is easy, only do what doesn't hurt. So the this, this is my, like poetic love of the opposite of that. Lord, high and holy, this is the Valley of vision is from the actual Puritan poem book, the Valley of Vision. But this is the poem. The Valley of Vision. Lord, high and holy, meek and lowly thou has brought me to the Valley of vision, where I live in the depths, but I see thee in the heights, hemmed in by mountains of sin. I behold thy glory. Let me learn by paradox, that the way down is the way up, that to be low is to be high, that the broken heart is the healed heart, that the contrite spirit is the rejoicing spirit, that the repenting soul is the victorious soul, that to have nothing is to possess all, that to bear the cross is to wear the crown, that to give is to receive, that the Valley is the place of vision. Lord, in the daytime, stars can be seen from the deepest wells, and the deeper the wells, the brighter thy stars shine. Let me find thy light in my darkness, thy life in my death, thy joy in my sorrow, thy grace in my sin, thy riches in my poverty, thy glory in my valley.
Speaker 1:That's good. So how often do you think about the Roman Empire?
Speaker 2:That was your theological question. That was a good one, yeah.
Speaker 1:No, it's just, I think about them. There's this movement on it.
Speaker 2:It's a huge movement.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and girls think about it never and guys think about it like once a day, I think about like once every two days.
Speaker 3:What the heck is this? Yeah?
Speaker 2:I am playing a. I played it back in the day the game was made 2001,. But is it made available for your iPhone now? Rome, total War. Are you guys familiar with the Total War games?
Speaker 3:No, don't need that in my life. Oh, but you do.
Speaker 2:So I think about the Roman Empire, probably my Roman Empire that I'm building once every six hours.
Speaker 3:I think about it. To me, the reason I think about it so often is because I think about the kingdom so often and it's like the best representation I have of human endeavor versus God's endeavors. It's literally kingdom versus empire.
Speaker 2:Maybe the next off the cuff is why we think that that has become something that's happening. Why is the Roman Empire a recurring theme among men right now, where all of a sudden we realize, oh, we all think about the Roman Empire regularly, some of it's meme, but it's like legitimately like, okay, why is that? Why is that it's because we feel like men were men in the Roman Empire? Or because of the glory and the human endeavors and the riches and how advanced they were and the awkwardness Because we're playing the violin while the city burns. Yeah. Or is it because we look around and say, oh, I've smelled this before?
Speaker 3:Yeah, why did you?
Speaker 1:I'm just. I'm four times a month, probably on Roman, because I can't go once a week. I got to go four times a month because sometimes it's four times in a week.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, that's probably true.
Speaker 1:So that's the end boom. Closing remarks. Man, thanks for listening to the Across the Counter podcast. If you enjoyed the show, please rate us five stars wherever you got this podcast. Thanks, y'all.
