Real Talk on Therapy and Community | Rachael Gilbert | Episode 11

Speaker 1: 0:01

Hi, this is Grant Lockridge and Jared Tafta on the Across the Counter podcast, where we create space for real people to have honest conversations. Today we have across the counter Rachel Gilbert, and just tell me, rachel, tell me a little bit about your personal journey and how you kind of got started.

Speaker 3: 0:23

I love that part of your tagline you just read was you want to talk to real people about real stories? Because I feel like that's me. I have a podcast called Real Talk with Rachel. And how I got started, I think about myself, you know, I was the youngest of five kids. As a pastor's kid, and because I was the youngest of not just five kids, I was the youngest of four girls. I did not talk much growing up, but I always was listening, I was always observing, and I realize now in hindsight that that actually has served me quite a bit in what I do now as a therapist, as a podcast host, as all the hats that I wear, depending on which day of the week we're talking, and something that I used to hate about myself. Just to be very honest, I used to be like man why can't I be more outgoing, like my sisters, and why can't I just speak up, and all the things that comparison traps us in. And I finally, as I got older, started to realize, oh wait, I have stuff to bring to the table too. I may not be the loudest in the room and I may not be the most outgoing and all those things, but the Lord has taken me on a very unique journey, and I got my undergraduate degree in exercise physiology. I wanted to do something in the medical field, but I wasn't quite sure what and became a stay at home mom, taught group fitness for about 10 years and then I went back to school to become a therapist and my husband and I are business owners. It's now an integrated medical practice. We've owned that for 13 years and we are both entrepreneurs at heart, but also just, it's been really fun in that journey along the way. When God started to call me out to say, hey, I want you to start speaking on some of these things that I've taught you a lot about and I want you to start sharing your story, my first response to him was no, I'm not a speaker, remember, I'm the quiet girl who doesn't say anything. But God is. He has a sense of humor. That's how him and I talk to each other. We're a very casual conversation, and he put 2 Timothy 1.7 on my heart at that time, which y'all know. It just says for God has not given you a spirit of fear or timidity, but power, love and a sound mind, and I just stood on that verse for so long every time he asked me to move forward and do things that made me very uncomfortable really would rather not and I just moved forward in faith and did it, and that's really how I got to. What I'm doing today was one tiny step at a time, one little yes at a time, and it's been really fun to just watch him open doors along the way.

Speaker 1: 2:55

Well, that's awesome.

Speaker 3: 2:57

You sound so well spoken now, so it's it's hilarious that you are the shy introvert and now you're your podcasting on other people's podcasts, so that's, that's awesome, yeah hey, I like to tell people I'm still an introvert, which is kind of why I love podcasting, because, like we're going to have this conversation, that we're going to close our computers and I'm going to be alone again. You know, to be a speaker and not be like in the presence of a ton of people at one time, yeah, that's comfortable.

Speaker 2: 3:28

You can just have technical difficulties and just that's awesome.

Speaker 1: 3:35

That's awesome. So, as far as therapy, what kind of? What kind of? Led you to be a therapist? What made you pick that?

Speaker 3: 3:46

Yeah, that's another fun one that again, in hindsight I see I was kind of already doing these things a lot because, like I said, I loved I've always loved hearing people's stories and obviously therapy is a lot more than just hearing people's stories. But you do have to like to listen to what the people stories if you're going to be a therapist, and I've loved that my whole life. And then you know, as I mentioned, whenever I was a group fitness instructor, I found that after class women would come up to me and they would just be sharing what they're going through, their marriage or their whatever, because they would just open up. And then I was also very involved in church and doing life groups and I noticed I was just lacking some tools and I just knew I would really love some further training on this. So things I have right now in my tool belt aren't enough to help some of the people that I'd like to. So I went back to school and it was also in going to school that then I even went to therapy for the first time in my life. It was kind of funny. You know two things that are funny that God did with me One starting a podcast. I had actually never been interviewed on a podcast before I started one, so that was fun. I've now been on a lot of them. And then when I went to school to become a therapist, I'd never seen a therapist. And then I went to one, obviously all in school, super huge fan of going to them, obviously now even as one, but that you know. Once I started getting into it, I realized, okay, this is the missing piece, this is going to be what helps me to help other people get unstuck in whatever areas. And I do have some specialties that I specialized in, that I learned, picked up along the way in grad school, but that's really how I got on my journey to become a therapist.

Speaker 2: 5:29

How does one choose to become a therapist having never seen a therapist?

Speaker 3: 5:35

That's a great question, Jared.

Speaker 1: 5:37

I don't know, give her the hard one, why not I?

Speaker 3: 5:39

know. Again, it goes back to those faith steps and actually, if I'm going to take it even one step further back, I really initially felt led to just go back to graduate school and at first I wasn't totally sure what I was going, which route I was going to go. There were a couple of different tracks I could have taken and one of the first courses I took was a counseling course that could have counted for either of the tracks that I went down and I just knew. When I sat in that counseling course I thought I'm supposed to be here. One, it was the Lord, you know, with me, just saying this is where you're supposed to be, and then two, that's when I then went, saw my first therapist and I was like this is life changing, where have you been my whole life? And I thought I want to do that. I want to help people like that woman. Help me.

Speaker 2: 6:27

That's awesome. I have one other question that may be a really stupid question, but I'm fond of them. What's the difference between a therapist and a counselor?

Speaker 3: 6:37

That's a great question and honestly, there really isn't one. It's what would you like to be called? So, actually, my degree is in marriage and family therapy, so I have an MFT and then my degree enabled me that I could have gone on to become an LMFT, which is licensed marriage and family therapist, or an LPC, which is a licensed professional counselor. Both of those can do the exact same thing. It's just which board would you like to answer to? I mean, that's about that. Now. There is differences now in counselors versus a psychologist and things like that. Like I can't me myself and a marriage and family therapist I couldn't prescribe medication, but as far as just you know, marriage and family therapist versus a licensed counselor, we can all do the same things. Our trainings are just probably usually a little different, especially if you didn't have the same background that I did in the marriage and family therapy, marriage and family therapist generally. I'm going way too much. I know you're like I did not ask for this much. I'll stop here after this. But generally they have more of a holistic approach, meaning they view treatment as they want to know about your whole family, versus sometimes counselors will go just more individually. So that's a little different.

Speaker 2: 7:55

So that's the. That's a very professional response. Do you guys have like interior Jedi Wars against each other of like what, how you think about each other? Like oh, you know, therapists are, you know they do so much different than counselors, or like, does that make sense?

Speaker 3: 8:12

Yeah, honestly, no, not really, because I think that we all know our zone of genius and I think that really a lot of counselors, especially we, tend to, once you start to recognize whether you want to focus on individuals or marriages and families. We're actually grateful for our marriage and family therapist, because if somebody comes into my office and I go, oh, your whole family needs to be seen, but hey, I don't specialize in that, but I can refer you over here. Not to mention, we're in a very unique time right now. Um, there, I don't, I know for myself and then I know for a lot of my own therapist counselor friends. We all have waiting lists, so it's, there's not much competition happening right now. In fact, if anything, it's like we're trying to find each other like who has openings that I can refer people to? Um, because there's just a really big need for therapy right now, and so now there's no turf wars. That's awesome, yeah.

Speaker 1: 9:12

Oh gosh, I'm just two, uh two full question. Number one why do you think that there's so much need for therapy right now? And number two how does let me see how to phrase this what is the most valuable thing that you've learned throughout your process as being a therapist? Because I'm super interested in psychology and my wife's going to be a therapist and super interesting to learn about. Like Carl Jung and like you know, freud is crazy, but he somehow found it at all, so I'm just trying to figure out a little bit about that. So yeah, my little, my two-fold question.

Speaker 3: 9:59

Yeah. So the first part, why? Now? There's probably a two-part answer to that. First of all, there's always been a need for therapy, but we're just finally getting it towards normalized, used to. If you saw a therapist, you didn't tell anybody. It was like I have an appointment today and nobody's going to know what that appointment is. Now people talk online about hey, I saw my therapist yesterday and I learned this and we worked on this. So it's finally just coming to the point where it's becoming very normal for both men and women. You know, it's just across the board. That that's just. It's just becoming normal. So there's that for sure. So I don't know if it's as much that the need has increased as people are finally recognizing it's a very valuable resource. But I will say where the schedules did pick up was during COVID, for two reasons. One, I mean COVID you know people are going through some stuff mentally there. But then two, therapy world changed big time during then because for the first time, licensing boards like the ones I answer to gave us the ability to do virtual telehealth, whereas before, for HIPAA reasons and compliance and all that, we couldn't and so and there were very few software, you know platforms that they would allow us to use. So that opened up and then they left it open since then. So it's made it more accessible to a lot of people because they can go hop on you know a call with their therapist during their lunch break in their car, and so there's that. So that's the first question you asked. The second question you asked was what have I found most impactful? Is that what?

Speaker 1: 11:36

you said yeah, most impactful, most valuable yeah.

Speaker 3: 11:39

Yeah, so many things. But I think just even in the counselor seat I have it's been eye-opening to me and I mean this should be common sense. Okay, what I'm about to say, people have gone through some stuff and I don't think that we recognize that enough. You know, we we've heard this saying a lot and if you haven't, you you'll hang onto it. I'm sure hurting people hurt people and sometimes we get really confused at why people act the way they act and all the things. But the more people I have sat with and real and hear their stories and help them walk through some stuff and give them resources, is it just opens my eyes and honestly gives me such a heart for God's people in a way that I have never had before, because I'm getting a different perspective. I'm just getting a oh my goodness, like my heart is breaking over what people have been through. I've sat with people into their seventies who have told me things that they never told anybody. I mean, and people shouldn't have to walk around for that many decades in life doing things on their own. So that's one one impact. I mean I could sit for the next hour and tell you all kinds of impactful things. You're welcome to dive a little deeper on that, if you want. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 13:00

I mean, I'd love just kind of a breakdown and maybe our listeners find it valuable, maybe they don't, but the main reason we do this is because we enjoy it. So just yeah, keep on going with that, because I'd love to know some more valuable truths and therapy and stuff like that.

Speaker 3: 13:18

So yeah, give me a specific question on breakdown of what I have.

Speaker 2: 13:25

So I've had a thought for a while about the like, the reason there's been a rise in the need for counsel, and maybe previously in my life I didn't look at counsel as unneeded, but as I had hopes that it would come from other places, and so I have a theory. It's kind of like a pocket theory. I want to hear your opinion, but it's that as like there used to be a lot more, a lot more relational I'm going to use the word like communion in terms of like nearness to one another and accountability to one another and the family in the workplace, just in day to day, like rhythms of life, like looking one another in the eye, participating in conversation. But as there's been like a rise in technology and then a breaking down in the communal spaces, it seems to me that there's less ability to actually talk to one another. So my like, my opinion, has been like all therapy and counsel is valuable, but most naturally it comes in the relationships that you're participating in a daily basis in, like it should come, you know, in your local community, in your new family, friends, coworkers that are invested in one another. But we now live in a world that we're all just trying to survive, it feels like. So my theory has just been it's been a natural consequence of disconnection in communal spaces and familial spaces. So invalidate or validate, what do you think?

Speaker 3: 15:05

Well, I they call me a mediator, you know, when you do all those personality tests and all my results are, and that's what? Because I can see both sides of pretty much everything. Which I used to hate that about myself. Now I like it because it helps me have a full perspective. So I have to agree and disagree with what you just said. So I actually do agree. I know you're like that's weird. I do agree with you. That used to. We used to have so much more support from just our local community and even within your own family unit, and, for sure, the whole online thing has caused some, just some weirdness there yes is the best way to say it and that we feel connected because we see all these people and we send them private messages, but that's really not connected. They don't really see us. Right, we put our best foot forward but they're not really seeing us. So in one sense, I do agree with you for sure that that absolutely is something that has caused more of a need to arise Because, again, I do counsel people where they're going. I don't have anybody that I can talk to. I don't have that in my life. A safe space is really what we would call that and I actually teach. I teach this to my counseling clients and I also did teach it in my book. It's called a community wheel and one of our jobs as a counselor is actually to help people develop strong community, because people need that. Again, back to your point. If you don't have that, you don't have a strong community. It's going to be very hard when you go through tough seasons of life if you don't have that. So that is something that we have to work on and to develop. But then the other the only way reason I say I disagree and I don't even know if I'd say I disagree, but let's just elevate your answer a little bit would be would just be that I know as a counselor, I have seen so many times that even if somebody has an awesome family and they have awesome community, the value of account that a counselor brings to the table aside from all of our training and all those things is a person who can give a perspective that is not emotionally involved. Right, because sometimes you know when people, when you're sharing what you're going through with some, the person who's actually involved, or they know all the people involved, or the right smack dab in the middle of it. That's a different perspective than me. Who I'm like I don't know. The mom, the aunt, the party? Like I don't, I don't, I don't know all them. So all I'm doing is helping what's right in front of me, the individual, and that is a good perspective, because my views, my opinions are not skewed by emotions. Right, and so that that's the only thing I would say, does elevate and make counseling one, one of the things that makes counseling different and that does bring that helpful perspective. But it should never, ever, ever counselor should never replace your community, and that's really dangerous and people think that they can.

Speaker 2: 18:01

Yeah, that I can see that and I don't even see that as a disagreement as much as, yeah, like the need for unbiased, non-emotional, just counsel. Like that is a that's the need of human nature. Like that you don't have emotion involved. And yeah, that even makes me think of like scripture, in terms of like a prophet has no respect in their own town. Like this there's some degree of like communal intimacy that like nobody can see clearly because everybody's inside of that mess or that circle. So that makes sense 100%. But I do. I really love what you just said at the end that like that version of counsel or therapy shouldn't replace your community, because that's kind of like the problem that is presented in my mind as far as like a direction or culture with lean is, it's a lot easier to need your counselor or your therapist to be everything, to solve all the problems. And I could view, I could see why a significant part of your role would be the community development wheel, because it would be the same as like trying to teach a student that is every day going home to like a horrendous atmosphere of like poor education and having like no support, like every day you're starting at ground zero again. Yeah, so I could imagine that I'm surprised. Yeah, I'm surprised often by counselors that are, that seem to have joy, so that's always something I'm intrigued into, like enduring joy, oh yeah, what do you mean by that? To be the bearer of some of the worst pains in society, and a lot of. I'm guessing that the majority of the conversations you have, or not, rainbows and butterflies, right? So yeah, where does? I guess that would be a question like where does your enduring joy come from?

Speaker 3: 20:01

Yeah, oh, this is a great question and something I have have and do wrestle with, if I'm just going to be very honest here. And you know, one other thing I do want to say back to the community piece is and then I'll answer the joy part, my, when I was in graduate school. I'm thankful I had a really great supervisor. She actually is the one who set me straight on this, because I remember I was, you know, had a client load. You have certain hours you have to get in and graduate school and and I had a few patients at the time that were going through some hard stuff, like one of them was even had some suicidal stuff happening, like just hard hard stuff. And I was going to go on vacation and I just remember feeling in a panic. I went to my supervisor and I'm like I can't leave town like that. She needs me. What if something happens? And my supervisor was like whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You better not be her only community. Have you helped her? Like is she counting on you? You know, and I, and she does. I was so thankful she did that for me and then she's the one who actually taught me about the community will analogy, and I've done that with every single person who's come through my doors now, because it set me free as a counselor to think, oh wait, really, what I was doing in that moment and I still see some counselors do not knowingly. Of course we're trying to be Jesus to people. I'm not Jesus, like I can't be. I'm not Jesus, I'm not, I'm not your community. I can help you establish that a community, but we have to kind of get down off of that little. You know what we call it pedestal, yes, pedestal. I was like I can't look into me. So then, the joy thing, yes, the joy thing. This is another lesson I've had to learn the hard way, and even just yesterday. So I have certain days of the week where I counsel all day long, all to see people back to back, and that just works for my schedule. And on those days I can feel the heaviness when I leave the office, like I can just like, oh, like you said, like. And then even, just even last night, I was feeling a little nauseous, and I know it was because I had heard some hard, really hard stuff yesterday, like trauma, like intense trauma, and I have learned that when I drive home, this is what works for me. I put worship music on. I like pray over each person that I just saw and I just say, lord, I release that person to you. I cannot carry the burdens, but you can and I do, and I and I can tell you the days I don't do that. Some days I'll hop in and see somebody called me and oh, I've got to call her back, and I'll talk to somebody on the way home and I'll go into my home to my husband and our three kids and my whole demeanor is like heavy and they can all tell oh no, you've had a hard, long day. And so for me personally, I've had to make it a priority that when I leave, those days where I see a ton of people, I have to pray that this is going to sound a little strange to just phrase, but pray it off of me, because of course the enemy would love for that spirit of heaviness and oppression and depression and anxiety to sit on me. And then, of course, what will I do? I'll burn out and I'll quit Right, and that's not what the Lord wants. And so those days I mean I have to be very diligent to just guard my own heart and mind and and pray and worship it off.

Speaker 1: 23:17

Yeah, something I'm curious about is you've mentioned a lot about the community wheel and stuff like just walk me through what that means and what that is.

Speaker 3: 23:29

Yeah. So you have you ever seen at least on a movie? You've seen, maybe not in real life a wagon, the old school wagons, and we got the wagon wheels there. And on a wagon wheel you have lots of spokes, and that those spokes are very important because they're load bearing. And what we do is again, if you have, if anybody even wants to do this as they're listening, pull out a piece of paper and draw yourself a wheel and put some spokes on there. And on those spokes we want to write who is your community right now, at anybody and everybody. It could be individuals if you're married, or if you are coworkers, if you have a group you love to go to a church group and exercise group, whatever but right, in all those spokes, a healthy community, because we also have unhealthy communities that sometimes we might need to remove it at times. But it's always eye opening for people to do this because it's a visual illustration for how much community you have and what we mean by that is well, what if one spoke gets removed? What if that friend moves? Or what if you move and you just you know you've lost all those people? What if you have a falling out? What if somebody dies, like if that were to happen. And I've had this happen where we draw these in session and people have, you know, two people on there and they go, and I actually were breaking up with this guy, and so now we're down to one and I'm going. Oh no, do you see the problem here that if you go through anything that's load bearing in your life just like if you're driving along in your wagon and you had a wheel that had one spoke is probably not going to last for very long. It's going to collapse under that pressure. And so it's eye opening for people to see, and honestly to see, that it's something you can work on. I think sometimes people sit around and wish for community, but they don't work on it. You know they're like, huh, that'd be nice to have community. Well, when was the last time you did go to a life group or you did reach out to a friend to go to coffee or something like that? So it's just a visual illustration to help people see how much community they do actually have and in ways they could improve it.

Speaker 1: 25:36

Okay, what would you?

Speaker 2: 25:36

define as a go ahead Grant. Finish your thought.

Speaker 1: 25:40

Yeah, I gotta go at this because this is something that me and my wife struggle with a little bit. So what would you say? So I have really good like guy community, so I have a bunch of guys that I like I'm really doing well at that. I've just got to kind of figure out how to find community with my wife, and that's significantly harder for some reason. So, just for our listeners and for me as well, what would be the just kind of the best ways to find community with a spouse, and also just with yourself as well? But just kind of, what are those? What are those building blocks of community? Like? What's the best way to find that community?

Speaker 3: 26:25

That's a great question. I think it's very important to be true to yourself when you're finding community. First of all, are you an introvert or an extrovert? That's going to very much affect the type of community that you will stay with. Both my husband and I are introverts, so we're not exactly the type that want to go to giant life groups and like we could go to a giant life group and still feel like we're not plugged in because we're introverts. So we're not going to connect as well in that way. And so the first thing is you do need to know yourself and you need to know your spouse. It's very common to see one spouse as an introvert, one's an extrovert and then you kind of have to deal with that aspect of things and give and take a little of. You know what one person likes to do and make a sacrifice there and then switch and do what the other person likes to do. But that first is there and then the second is again. Just like anything in life, if you don't enjoy it, especially when it comes to community, you're probably not going to stick with it. So my husband and I are very big outdoors people. We love to hike, we love to cycle. We love being active essentially, and so for us we found, okay, first of all, what's my husband and I is common interests being outdoors, hiking, that kind of thing and then we found friends who like to hike and it's a cool thing for introverts because we're with one other couple hiking, and so that's a unique thing, but it is. I do know in couples it can take a little bit longer. So I would encourage you to not quit when you try one thing. I think that's what happens sometimes we visit one life group that went horribly, and so we never try again anything else. And so let's go back to the drawing board. Let's figure out how you're each wired. Let's figure out some kind of common ground that you both enjoy doing. Maybe it is something faith based, and that's the only thing that you can, you know, say, hey, we both love to read the Bible together. Okay, how can we, how can that be our community? But find something that's common. And then you know invite, even if it doesn't exist yet, invite other people into it with you. Yeah, does that help?

Speaker 1: 28:30

Oh yeah, I love it All. Right, Jared, what you get.

Speaker 2: 28:34

I was just thinking about the idea of what is a spoken, what's not a spoke, right like, because I can imagine you know needing community, but Like trying to make all of your burdens somebody else's responsibility, and like being in a place of urgency, because even if somebody's sitting in your office, it's like, oh, you've only got like, you know, one spoke and that's fragile. It feels like the wrong motivation to go out and it's like I got to find somebody right like so so what does that look like to you in terms of, like healthy ways to build, because I assume like there's no quick fix, if that makes sense.

Speaker 3: 29:23

For sure, jared. This is a great question because, yeah, absolutely the last thing we want to do is create some kind of codependency or people doing weird stuff in community, because we know that happens a lot, which is sometimes what makes people a little little area of doing community things, and and it does so. Something else that I will do with people is, yes, we look at who is on their will, but then I also challenge them and say, okay, who's will do you think you're on? Because if I'm not on somebody else's wheel, it's mean I'm not, I'm not in community, that I'm not there for a two-way street. The community is both ways. It's not just, hey, you're on my will, but guess what, I cannot be on yours because I don't have time for that. That's not. Then you're not in community with them, and that's always again I opening for people to to really be honest with themselves of I don't know if anybody would put me on their, their wheel. Then we do have to start, stop and do a heart check and go Alright, I'm kind of selfish or I'm, you know, like, I'm kind of just like I want to take but I don't want to give to anybody, and then that's probably at the root of why you may not have some community happening in your own life and would you counsel in that Situation?

Speaker 2: 30:38

hey, why don't we start with you seeing who you can actually care about, versus like going out and figuring out who can take care of you?

Speaker 3: 30:48

Yeah, for sure, because that's what we, we should. And again, you know I hate to say a blanket statement because obviously some people, situations are a little different as to why they don't have community, especially if they've gone through some stuff or walking through a divorce and that kind of that's a little bit of a different thing. I'm a therapist, yeah, you know my Whatever you call political, politically correct, therapist answer. But yeah, but for the most part I mean that's even biblical of doing to others Like what you would like them to do into you, not in a manipulative way. But yeah, I need a friend. Who can I go be a friend to? Who would love to receive an encouraging text or a text asking me to, you know, go to coffee or something and flip in the script is huge, not just for this but for a lot of mental health, to flip the script and just go. Who can I serve like? Who can I bless today and make it less about myself and more about when got his plan to me and how I can be a blessing to others.

Speaker 1: 31:48

Hmm, man, that pumps me up so much because that's something that I've been talking about a lot with like other people and my wife and stuff like that of just like, hey, the best way to find Community for us is just if we, like, start serving other people and would that statement be correct to you, like and she says a lot of really, really smart things as well which you're the one that said that, but it's just like that, that's such a that's so valuable to me to just like you, if you go out and serve others and you go out and give your life away for other people Respect, expecting really nothing in return Then you're gonna find that type of community. Because I mean, if you, if you're the guy that's always like Helping people move or always gonna give him a free meal, or not like a freeloader, but like it's just like a guy that's always willing to help you where you're at, that's absolutely a person that you want to be around, or a girl that wants to do the same thing, so that's absolutely someone to be around. So, man, do I agree with that and I just loved hearing you say that.

Speaker 2: 33:01

So yeah, I think there's some. I mean, and Rachel, can you know, confirm or deny? But I think to some degree like one. One thing to process sometimes is like you can't give what you don't have, and so, like the idea, if you're in such a traumatized place or such a broken place, there may be times it's like you're not, like you're not fit to be a friend, if that makes sense at some level, because some like like base groundwork needs to be done. Even getting you back to a place of like are you showering right now? Like are you? Are you taking in even enough water? Like there, I think there's a place you can get to in isolation, that that you do need a space of recovery. But to make a shift where you just stay there or you learn habits that like, oh, I've always got to be safe and I'm not gonna care for anybody else unless I feel completely secure and safe without any risk whatsoever, like that to me a lot of times that feels like the reason that we don't move toward others because others are messy, and it's like I finally got my stuff in order, I don't need anybody taking a dump in this barn, and like there's a scripture that says you know if, if the stalls are clean, then you have no oxen. Or if you want to clean stall, then have no oxen, but, like the context there is, you also don't have any wheat or any grain or anything to like. Provide fruitfulness for your life. And my father-in-law he's he's a juxtaposed sometimes, even though he was Our SAJ for 40 years, but he said, he said then the other truth behind that that's not written is if you are gonna have oxen in your stall, then you're gonna need a bigger shovel, and so it's like yeah, there's just a like, we're just a mess. So what do you like? Where do you stand on that, rachel? From a, from like, encouraging people to move toward the messy.

Speaker 3: 35:08

Yeah, and an ideal world. We would all work on Building healthy community when we're in a healthy spot, right, when we do have something to give. Unfortunately, for most people, this applies to community and a lot of things in life. You could apply it to health, you could apply it to money. We don't really have a wake-up call and tell it's not there until it's very evident it's not there right. And so if you're listening today and you are, you know, feel like you're in a healthy space, I would say start working now on moving towards that community. Because, jared, you brought up an excellent point and that's why I, a few minutes ago we were talking, had to give a little bit of a you know, caveat to my. What I was about to say was because somebody who's going through crisis, they don't have an ounce of energy left in their body to go develop community. Are you kidding me? Right now, and I wouldn't even ask them to do that. That would be mean of me to say you need to go, get out there and make a Friend and like. That's just mean, okay.

Speaker 2: 36:11

Academic words just mean. This is the best word.

Speaker 3: 36:16

Like that's not, yeah, that's not kind at all as so. So but so if they find, you know, if they find themselves in that position, I'm like, yeah, we're that's not gonna be our priority right now. I'm gonna find you some other support groups maybe that are more therapeutic related, that are just we can plug you into right away, but I'm not gonna ask you to go try a new life group right now. Um, but with that said, if we had already developed good community before I find myself in that deep mess, like you said, where you're so depressed that you can't even get out of bed and, by the way, that's a real thing, I mean that's a very real thing and Then if you'd already had that established community people who already know and love you you can be honest with them and say, hey, I knew a girl once who, when she was going through severe depression, she had awesome community who knew she was going through it, and she had somebody who would call her every morning so that to talk to her, to help her get out of bed, or otherwise she wouldn't be able to get out of bed. That is community, right, like that's legit community. That goes I know you're depressed and I'm gonna actually be practical right now and call you and talk to you so you can get up Out of bed today and go brush your teeth and would hold her accountable to do that. And that was beautiful. But the key with this girl was she had to develop that in previous seasons when she wasn't down in the nasty pit. You know like she and so does that. There's that. So that's the first part that you asked me and the second part you asked about the mess. Yeah, absolutely. That does keep a lot of us from getting into community of. Most of us don't want to deal with barely want to deal with our own mess, let alone somebody else's mess. So that example I just gave you, that took effort on that friend's part to say hey, every morning, for as long as you need me to, I'm gonna call you and talk to you while you get out of bed, instead of her Just being like what is wrong with you? Like why can't you pull yourself together like all the rest of us are? She did something about it and she actually helped her. And so again back to what I said a little bit ago about checking your own heart first in this like Am I willing to be that person when I'm not the one down in the pit? Am I willing to be the person who will? Will call my friend or will show up on her doorstep and say, alright, rise and shine. You know you get it up. Let's do this like here's your coffee. We're gonna get up and we're gonna. I'm gonna be there for you and most of us are. We're willing to take that community, but not very many of us are willing to give it.

Speaker 2: 38:41

Hmm, yeah and that brings up like just one final thought on that, which is, I think, a lot of times we give up before we start, and Reason is, I believe, that we're we're stronger than we think we are. So there's times that you feel like you have nothing to give because you Can't pick yourself up, but you still have the ability to make a phone call, or you still have the ability to check in, or it's like there's nothing more liberating when your whole life is a mess. Then to be able to bless somebody, even though your life isn't fixed like and it's not that hard to, to create or facilitate blessing in terms of care or compassion or a call. So also to listeners like, you're stronger than you think you are. Like, yes, you may not be able to fix anything, or even Even wash the clothes that you've been looking at for four weeks or, you know, clean the baseboards or all the things that you have been avoiding, but to reach out and touch another person and be an encouragement to them, without manipulation or expecting anything, like that takes significantly less than then maybe we imagine and you can back me up, rachel, like I think one way to Realize that is by accepting how little it would take for someone to encourage you like you can often see that in that place, like man, even just a kind word or a smile from someone in the grocery store that you don't even know, that like sent you to tears in your car, like that was nothing, like it was just one person in the day, that like was kind and Like. I feel like all of us have the ability to have that level of impact with every breath and sometimes we think, like I can't, I can't be encouragement to anyone, so I don't know just from a person that that has been in that place and needed encouragement. Like you have no idea the level of impact you are on the people around you.

Speaker 3: 40:41

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 40:42

So, true Something that I want to harp on too is there's a phrase that I've heard a bunch is just love embraced becomes love extended. So like, if you actually like receive that love, which it could. You know, love comes in many different forms. The biggest type of love is through Christ, but like through other people and stuff like that, like if you embrace the love of others and you get all that love from the father, then you can then extend it to others, and I think that it's very valuable. You said, Jared, about the idea that like just kind of do what you can Like. If you can't get out of bed, then make the phone call from the bed. If you can't get out of the bed and you can't get to your phone, then pray for somebody. If you can't pray for somebody and sit with somebody, then you know, just think about them or something like that. You know what I mean. Like there's so much, just whatever the easiest, littlest barrier of entry is that you can do to actually like care for somebody and love for somebody, Then that's the step that you should take. So I really like that, that idea of just you know doing what you can and even if you're not in a super healthy spot. You can still, you know, care for others, maybe not like a pastoral role or something crazy like that, but just give them what you have and, you know. Just a smile at the grocery store, that's great.

Speaker 2: 42:14

Yeah, yeah, maybe one thing just, and I want to hear your opinion on this ritual Like I'm speaking a little bit from experience right now, my wife has been really knocked down with our fourth child, like bedridden for coming up on like 10, 10 weeks now. Just can't keep even drink water or keep anything down and she would hate. You know, like not to pity her or anything, but there's the mental battle of like you know, the guilt, the shame, like wanting to care for the kids, wanting to be there, wanting, like all the self-oriented things, and then the desire to be a part of community, even though you can't and I think we've been discovering like something about this like do what you can, like that that's valuable, until you feel like you can do nothing, like, and then that feels burdensome to some degree, like I, like I can't, like I can't do anything, and I may be wrong in this, I'm not sure. I think the place that I've been brought to is is that there's this like interior core fight of whether or not, like you can be appreciative for each moment. Like, like, maybe you can't do anything, but you still are living, you still are participating, and I think, I believe, that there's more good around every moment than there is bad, or there's more resurrection around every moment than there is death. That's why you're still breathing, or that's why life is going forward. But what do you think about that idea of being in such a hole that you know the fight really does become like? Are you thankful for living, if that makes sense?

Speaker 3: 43:53

Absolutely so it reminds me of. I wish I could tell you exactly where it is in the Bible, but it says that an attitude of praise lifts a mantle of depression. And I have something in my counseling office. Actually, a patient made it for me and then I've kept it in my office just to use with other people. It's a Mason jar that she decorated and it's just says on the outside of it it says count your blessings. And there's these little cards in there that sometimes at the end of session, I will just have people write what's one thing you're thankful for. And, like you said, for some people, when you are going through something like what your wife is walking through, these, these really these are the intense moments I'm talking about, where it's like, yeah, there's no serving of anybody outside the home right now, and that's a legitimate thing and we need to give honor and space to that kind of thing. But for some people, like you said, their thing they're thankful for might be that I woke up today, that I was able to take a shower today or whatever it is, but it absolutely and studies have actually even shown. So now we know it's biblical, but scientific studies have shown that yeah, like, one of the very key things, especially if somebody's struggling with depression, is gratitude. You know, and again, but I think sometimes we misunderstand what gratitude looks like and we think it needs to be thankful for this new house or whatever. And I mean, of course, we would be thankful for a new house, but it doesn't always have to be giant is what I'm trying to get at. You know, it can be just little things along the way, which I think is absolutely huge. And one of the things that really jumped up to me when you were talking about you know, you and your wife, this is, and we're and we're talking about community here too. My husband and I, we've been married 18 years now and something that has always been very important to us is that him and I, first and foremost, and then our three kids, we are, we are a community Like I think people forget that sometimes that your family of origin. So, first and foremost, if you're married, you know and this, if this applies to you if you're married, your spouse and then your children, that's your first call and that is your highest call to steward community. And it's always been really important to us that if we're not all good, then we shouldn't really be investing a ton of time and energy and other people eat and tell we're all solid. I'm not saying dismiss all the people outside your home, but I'm saying like, for example, if a husband and wife are not doing well, then anytime in energy we do have, it needs to be with each other, not out. Hey, let's go find some friends. And I think about that when I think about you know, when I had little kids at home, they were who I was pouring into. You know, and I think sometimes women do this and then men do as well, not only as fathers, but even in your workplace I see men do this. We discount the things that are the everyday and we think, well, that's not enough. I'm not out doing some other giant thing, but I also just want to just encourage people that wherever you're planted essentially, whether it's with the family, whether it's in a workplace that is also a great place to start with that community and investing there and not discounting all those people that you are pouring into on a daily basis already.

Speaker 1: 47:13

Yeah, I mean that's huge, that's. It took me a long time to learn that lesson of just like. I don't know I'm a seven like you're probably into Enneagrams and personality tests. You seemed like you did, we're into that. I'm an Enneagram seven, so it's just kind of like I like you're looking for the party. Yeah, I'm looking for the party, I like thinking, I like thinking in the future and not the right now, that kind of thing. So I don't know it's huge to just actually like look down and be like, hey, what I'm doing currently matters, if you know, if I bring Jesus into it, kind of thing like it does matter. But the the idea of just like doing the best you can with what you have, instead of just like always going for the next thing and always going for you know this is a bad analogy, but like the bigger house, but it could be like the better friends or like that sort of thing just really investing in what you have and then more more will come is what I found is just like when you really get like your marriage right, like that's the, that's the first thing, like that you should, other than, like you know, your relationship with God, like that's the first thing that you should care about and I've said this phrase before that my wife is like my first church, which is kind of, like you know, love. That goes off of what Paul said about Christ and the church and all that of just like you know I'm really I love churches, I love different denominations. I love community and all that stuff. But then just something I found like if I'm, like you know, ministering to some high school kids or if I'm doing you know, young adult ministry with a couple of like peers and stuff like that, um, if I just let my wife go and all that, like I am really making a huge, huge mistake. So just that, that idea of just just caring about and doing the best you can with what you have first.

Speaker 2: 49:35

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 49:35

And that's huge to me.

Speaker 3: 49:37

So I just learned that.

Speaker 1: 49:38

So that's, that's killer.

Speaker 3: 49:40

Yeah, and Grant, I just wanted to say I'm so grateful that you see that, because I'll be again just vulnerable with y'all for a second and say that in our my husband's name is Matt and our early years of marriage, I would, quite honestly, it would be a source of fights for us because I would want to go out to that community and we need to get into groups and we need to. You know like I wanted to go be social. Even though I'm an introvert, I still want to go be social. But our marriage was rocky, like it was rough, and as a man, he fought for our marriage in ways that I did not, like he. He he's just a fierce protector and he and him doing that, not only did he fight for our marriage, but also he turned down a lot of stuff that he could have done to further his career at the time because he valued our family first and foremost and he just made that priority. And there were times it drove me crazy and I'm like what are you doing this? What we're saying no to what? Why won't you do that? Like I was frustrated with it? Fast forward to 18 years of marriage. Our marriage is so insanely strong. Our business is thriving, like all the things. We said no to the first. You know, five, 10 years the Lord has absolutely blessed like tenfold. And you know I'm now down the road and I can see that. But I guess I just wanted the men to hear me say this, like to echo what you just said, but also to just don't be passive, like be that fierce protector of your family, be the love your wife and your family, just like you said how Christ loved the church and speak the truth in love and lead well, love what love? Well, and I just, yeah, I just felt led to share that because it really is huge and is very important that that is established before we start running around trying to make all these other friend groups. Because as a counselor, I can tell you just, you know, you know obviously I can't share much, but even yesterday I was telling my husband that half of the people I counseled their marriages on the rocks, they're on the brink of divorce. And when I see that, that their marriage is on the rocks and their family is, you know, about to crumble, but yet they have all these friends that they've invested all this time and energy in over the years, I'm like oh, we have it backwards. Like we need to make sure that you know, and obviously you can do both at the same time. I'm not it again. Please don't misunderstand that I'm saying you can't have friends, but you need to make sure your marriage and your family are rock solid above anything else outside of it.

Speaker 2: 52:15

It feels like a place of tension to lead from, where there's so much uncertainty as a husband because you're not perfectly loving and you don't perfectly comprehend how to lead Absolutely. But then you also oftentimes are contradicting maybe what your wife desires. So maybe I should be asking Matt but from your perspective as a wife, like 18 years later, does that make sense?

Speaker 3: 52:43

So are you asking if, whenever you said the comment about she's not sure who to listen to, now I guess I need ask me one clarifying question. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 52:57

So, as a woman who's kind of been through like your husband leading and you just expressed, sometimes leading in ways you didn't like, oh yeah, yes, like that sometimes to some degree, I feel like any step is going to be a step that whoever you're leading doesn't like, like, because nothing is exactly what they want?

Speaker 3: 53:20

Yes, okay, yeah, let's answer this. This is a great question because, while the key to any marriage is that God is the one who's right there at the center, you've probably heard of the triangle analogy right in marriage, that if the closer you know, you got God at the bottom and then the Jared does the triangle all the time man. I just said I clapped at the mic.

Speaker 1: 53:48

That was probably a mistake, but that made me laugh. So hard.

Speaker 3: 53:51

Yeah, I use a triangle for a lot of analogies, but so you've heard of the triangle, so you know. Yes, but I think that sometimes we forget about that. God is the one really leading. So God is leading, you know, both husband and wife. And the problem we get into is when either one of us says you know what, I'm doing this on my own, I don't need God's opinion, I don't need my husband's opinion, I don't need you know, I'm going off track. And so for both my husband and I coming back consistently to God in how he is leading him, praying, okay, lord, what's the next steps? And then me coming back and going. So, for example, when those moments happened where he wanted to do something that I'm like not necessarily agreeing with, I would pray and I would say Lord, one of us is wrong, sure, it's him. So if it's him, change his mind, and if it's me, change mine. And he always did that. But the coolest thing is when you pray for your spouse especially. It softens your heart towards them. So then you can actually see them how God does and, you know, actually have those healthy conversations. But then here's the other really big key when it comes to the man leading the woman in the situation we're talking about is you have to be respectful, and you actually do have to hear her opinion, her insights. Christ loved the church. He didn't bulldoze the church over, you know. He didn't silence the church and say don't say anything to me and my way, or the highway he gave. He gives the church an opinion. He gives the church the ability to have that relationship, and so that's something my husband's always been very good at with me, that he always asked my opinion. He valued my opinion, and I've we've even had other men notice we're actually building a house right now, and we had another, a man on the job say you are the first husband I've ever heard, because my husband's usually the one on site and taking care of stuff and they'll ask for a change. And he'll say I think so, but let me talk to Rach about it first and then I'll get back to you. And this man noticed he said you're the first guy I've ever worked with that says let me talk to my wife first and then I'll get back to you. And it really stood out to this man, cause he's like you actually respect your wife and her opinion. And so that took time, though, of us earning trust with each other. You know years and in all kinds of different situations to for both of us to speak into each other's lives and then trust that, okay, lord, you'll sort out the details and and you'll figure that out. Did that help that a little bit?

Speaker 2: 56:29

Yeah, yeah, and I maybe to clarify even even a little bit more you, you said one thing that stuck out to me, and it's that sometimes, when someone's making a decision, especially a leader that you don't like, our response if the Lord is the one that's leading would be one of us is right and one of us is wrong. And I think, to help clarify, sometimes both of us may be a little bit wrong, but one of us has to make the call, and, and so that's the part that, like even the ability, like the buck stops here, like the idea is like just a decision has to be made and that's just a hard place to walk in in, like oneness with, if that makes sense. So I love what you said about like respect, and I think even both ways, like respect and mercy, like the wife respecting the husband, respecting this like, but not respect based on your perfection, Exactly.

Speaker 3: 57:30

Yeah, I remember early in marriage and I'm so thankful. I feel like I heard somebody say this, or I, somebody shared it with me and it stuck with me, and it was give your room, your husband room to fail, which just essentially means, like you said, at some point, somebody has to make a decision. And if, in that situation, my husband was the one making the decision, I had to come to peace with it within myself that, even if this decision turns out wrong and it fails, I'm not going to be there going oh, I told you so. You know, I can't believe you did that, you know and reaming him over the head. In fact, I've really been very guarded about my words. Anytime he made a decision that, like he said, turned out to be the wrong one, he does not need me to beat him down. The world's already doing it just fine on this own. He doesn't need his wife also to come along later and remind him of all the reasons he should have made a different choice, because we're a team. That's the other thing that I think people have to understand. You're a team, and if you rise as a team and you fall as a team and there's no oh, because of you we fail. No, we were a team. I didn't stop you from making the decision Right. And I've even told my husband, you know, because, because you know we're talking about the whole decision making thing in this form. You know, and I know couples do things differently. Sometimes you'll have the wife, who's more of the decision maker and just sometimes can depend on personalities and things like that. And I have, I have confessed to my husband I'm like you know why I like you to make all the decisions right, because then it's no pressure on me, like you know, it's like hey, it's not skin on my back, you know, if that decision was wrong and he can take it he's got thick skin and but then it's my job to support him in that.

Speaker 2: 59:08

And and we do have things where I'm the one making the decision on too- so, yeah, that's valuable, I like that and I love the idea that, like, even if someone has to make a decision like I like what you said the world already does enough in beating us down. And so another concept sometimes in marriage to me feels like, well, as long as I'm not saying anything negative, then I'm not being I'm not being unhelpful, but to some degree it feels like we may miss opportunity on occasion, that, like the person that has the ability to most energize you know your soul and your life is usually that person that's closest to you. And so, just as an encouragement to anybody participating in marriage husband or wife, like learning how your significant other receives encouragement, like now we're going to like your Chapman's five lump languages, but like nobody, nobody has more of an ability to like minister in those places. Like one word, like I've received encouragement through affirmation, like one word from my wife can go for you know months versus you know a thousand words of negativity from anybody outside. So it's just interesting that God's made us that way too, that we can receive, like Grant said in Grace, like it can have such an exponential impact as well, which is pretty cool.

Speaker 1: 1:00:36

Thanks for listening to the Across the Camera podcast. If you enjoyed the show, please rate us five stars, wherever you got this podcast. Thanks, y'all.